Casting, Racism, Sexism and Kathleen Kennedy

Well gee if mind transfer works why even bother training Jedi or Sith.

 

Yeah its a big deal same thing happened in Mad Max:Fury Road
Your point about her going into Kylo's head is a really good thing to mention. When they linked through the force there was an exchange of memories and feelings, so in a sense she was taught by him. and he learned things about her also. So the fact she attempted the 'mind trick' is not weird at all considering she'd just seen into the mind of Luke's apprentice.

 

Luke and Vader got in each others heads and I dont remember Luke getting a bunch of new skills.

 

If a guy takes a swing at you, you're going to swing back at him in a very similar way, technique and all. You can replicate it under duress because your stress response kicks in. However, they don't teach students by whacking them over the head.

Same reason.

 

He learned force choke from somewhere though.

 

EXACTLY!

Thank you!

 

Plus it should be mentioned that Kylo Ren uses a bunch of techniques unprecedented by either the Jedi or the Sith.
Either its down to his personal creativity and flair (See the lightsaber he built for proof) as well as his Skywalker 'force power level'
OR he uses techniques that the Jedi/sith didn't know, possibly taught to him by Snoke.

He can stop and hold blaster bolts in mid air.
He can paradise people with a wave of his hand
he can make them fall unconscious with another
and he can probe their minds. A force power that Vader and the Emperor did not possess, as otherwise they would not have needed the torture droids.

So the reason it wasn't used to teach the force, is that as far as we know, no sith or Jedi ever possessed such a skill.
Kylo Ren is like his lightsaber, raw energy, thats why all the folie sounds around his force abilities are based on wild animals and fire. So it would make sense that while he has the raw potential to do amazing force tricks, he has little mastery of them, thus Rey was able to 'feedback' on his mind probe in a way he didn't anticipate. its also worth noting that as far as we know he had never probed the mind of another force sensitive, thus he wasn't trying to shield himself in any way.
(Kylo Ren's force powers are one of my favourite things in TFA)

 

No.
Also not equivalent to Jedi Mind Trick Nice try though.

Luke too training and Anakin took training.

Sorry if I like my heroes to work for their powerups.

I hear a lot of speculation justifying it...at least Ladys argument had some book to back it this doesnt even have that.

 

This all depends on what your definition of Mary Sue is. As I've seen it in the last year and a half since Max Landis popularised it, it's a contentous term with different content to many people. Obviously, if you use a definition especially created for Rey, she's going to match it. I mean, we could pretty much label the term to most male characters from the last centuries of Western literature (James Bond), pretty much every 80s-90s action movie etc. Just think of Greek literature (Odysseus) or even Shakespeare (Van Helsing). It could be far easely applied to kid Anakin or even Luke in ANH, but we never did it. Why? Why is Rey so different? Interesting question. Honesly the only possible reason I tend to find is beacuse Rey is a female character which gained huge popularity, and thus for the more sensitive, traditionally patriarchic (or patriarchic leaning), male internet audience it was an easy bandwagon to jump in (note: I say this as a white, heterosexual male).

But even considering the above mentioned, I still think Rey isn't a Mary Sue. A MS is a perfect character. They have no character flaws and little to no internal conflict. The criticism is that perfect MS characters are boring. But honestly I never really felt that from TFA (even after becoming aware of the criticism).
I think that TFA didn't do a outstanding job in setting her fears and conflict, but it was there.
For example: She actually has an arc of dealing with abandonment, growing up on Jakku alone (see: when she looked at that old Lady in the market doing the same job as she), fear of responsibility (see: when she ran away from Maz castle after her vision) etc.

There were also sign of her flaws, like accidentally letting the rathars loose, forgetting to unlock the blaster on Takodana etc.
But I don't think we should start a race on how many flaws can you catch. Just because a character is flawed dosen't mean it's a good character or that it makes the movie better. Anakin in ep II and III was heavily flawed and he was still a terrible character to me.

And the most important: This is only the first movie. We don't even know who she is, yet. There might actually going to be an answer for her "overpoweredness". But even if not, I still think she isn't a Mary Sue. Or even if she is, it dosen't bother me personally, it dosen't make the film less enjoable or boring.

Except this is not true at all. Without Finn (and Poe), Han, and Maz Rey wouldn't have left (or would return to) Jakku at all. Contary to Luke, she wanted to say and later to go back. They were the driving force behind her decisions.

Except this isn't true for ep I at all. Anakin was absolutely perfect in TPM. And contrary to Rey, this attribute of his does take away from the movie to me. Watching an 8 years old blowing up the TF ship alone in a starfighter he's never even seen before always makes me shaking my head.

See my anser:
https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....wakens-is-a-superior-movie.11953/#post-371108

See the above mentioned.

 

Earlier in this thread I did outline what my definition of a Mary Sue is: Someone without any real flaws. For me Rey doesn't have any 'real' flaws. they actually all serve her well in the end. but I also mentioned earlyer that yes, she only gets picked on because she's female. I previously discussed Batman, Aragorn, Legolas as mary sue/mary stu's and I'd add Spiderman and every superhero (bar the X-men mostly) to that list. as well as most action heroes. so my lumping her in as a mary sue really doesn't mean much. I was just saying there isn't really a need to claim she 'isn't' a mary sue as most Hollywood heroes are.

and as you say its only been one episode, so no need to judge her arc yet.

Luke Skywalker is a good example of this

EP IV luke isn't really a mary Sue. Episode V luke isn't really a mary sue but by the end of the first trilogy he prety much is a mary sue, his arc makes him almost perfect. only now that we see him as an older man do we get the impression that he is still flawed and tormented, so I'm down with waiting to see where this goes.
All your points are valid, I just feel like I already addressed them earlier.
I don't find the Mary Sue title that offensive, or that necessary to discuss really. I don't care if Rey is or isn't one as long as the story is good.

 

Isn't that normal hero evolution...most heroes tend to close on top as a powerhouse with all their issues fixed.
Especially true when you don't expect or know when the sequel is coming.

 

With all due respect to you Lady Musashi, did we see the same movie? How can you say Anakin had none of those flaws? Didn't Padme get bothered when Kitster spoke to Anakin about the race and didn't she ask him about him not ever winning or even finishing a single race? You learned that Anakin was created by the Force OUTSIDE the movie??? Did you fall asleep when Qui Gon asked his mom about Anakin's father and she told him there wasn't one? Correct me if I'm wrong but all of this happened in TPM and not in the following movies.

--- Double Post Merged, May 14, 2017, Original Post Date: May 14, 2017 ---

How can you say the kid was perfect in TPM? It was said in the movie that he hadn't won a single race and he hadn't even finished one yet. And it's ok if you like TFA but come on can't your judgment be a little more sound? You say that watching an 8 year old blowing up the TF ship alone in a ship he's never even seen before always makes you shake your head but you are TOTALLY ok with an over powered character who was perfect at everything she did and who learned the Force by sheer girl power? She didn't even know the Force existed for crying out loud and all of a sudden she's pulling fears out of a trained Dark Jedi, giving three different commands to a Stormtrooper and beating a traind Jedi in Lightsaber combat because the Force suddenly boosted her powers? If Anakin makes you turn your head then what does Rey do with her actions? Make your head do a 360 like Reagan from the Exorcist?

 

I think that is rather a progress. To me Luke is the most "Mary Sue" in ep IV. But by the end of ep VI he's a more mature, trained, experienced character, so obiovusly he's going to be stonger and more confident. And don't forget that he actually needed to be saved from Palpatine.

 

I love this thread. Great to see this stuff being discussed and not shied away from.

 

yeah all true. I meant as an ideal audience insert. But I think as far as on screen heroe's go hes got one of the best arcs.

And I'm willing to wait and see this happen to Rey too. it just does appear to me that she begins as a Mary Sue, while he ends as one. perhaps she'll do an inverse journey to him, with her breakdowns/mental anguish to come more in the next two parts. I think that would make sense in terms of why you would set her up to be so established and skilled form the outset. she will have bigger things to face than Luke did I think.

 

I just think it's silly to call someone a Mary Sue before the story is done. Let the story play itself out first.

For all we now she had that Solo luck.

And it runs out soon.

 

Actually, a sad backstory like that (and even having no father) is a typical Mary Sue trait. But all his deeds which affected the plot were done by a ridiculously perfect character. As it dosen't alter the fact that an 8 years old apparent slave (the most well fed and well combed slave I've ever seen in a motion picture) has time, energy and money to build podracers, protocol droids, wins an incredibly dangerous contest which many experienced contester didn't even make out alive, and most importantly, wins a space battle in a foreign enviroment (he probably never even left Tatooine before) completely alone... Yes, this bothers me very much.

Maybe refute my points then, instead of vague insults.

Have you even read my post? Here is it again, if you missed it: https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....wakens-is-a-superior-movie.11953/#post-371108

You are more than welome to refute it.

Calm down, buddy. Have an argument please or don't bother posting. Personal insults like this don't add anything to the conversation.