Casting, Racism, Sexism and Kathleen Kennedy

You were arguing about the primary lead, Han Solo is the primary lead in the Han Solo film.

 

My argument wasn't Lead Specific although we could probably all stand to make a distinction clearer between Primary Lead and Female Lead.

As while its one in the same for Rey and Jyn you are correct it doesn't apply to Clarke.

The point was more 4X when there was a chance to cast a major female character...good old KK went to the same well every time.

 

Rogue One had the most diverse primary cast yet. I think a white brunette is of little concern when there is mass representation elsewhere.

Would a primary Black/ Hispanic/ Polynesian lead be great? Yes, but it's not entirely necessary.

 

So its necessary to put White Females Lead front and center but not necessary to put POC in the lead?

Well I agree with one thing Jyn was better application then Rey because they weren't constantly taking a steaming dump on all those MOCs to make Jyn look good unlike with Rey and Finn.

You know normally I wouldn't quote something directly above my post but for you I make an exception if only to have it on the permanent record.

Thanks for telling us how you really feel @GingerByte really puts things in prospective. Would anyone else like to show some true colors like good old Ginger here?

Of course, if its of little concern then one would have to wonder why KK keeps going for the same type...would seem to suggest at least to her its not of little concern.

 

You're twisting my words. Not cool man.

 

Oh no I straight quoted you Ginger would you like to rephrase because my reading is you don't think being a lead matters for POC but it does for White Women.

So feel free tell me how should I read your words.

 

Because non-white leads don't have the same box-office draw as a white lead. Especially for a western audience. I'm not making stuff up, the statistics backs up the claim. Name one major movie (1 bil +) where the lead isn't white. Go on, I'll wait.

You're probably going to say Furious 7. Except, it made most of its money internationally, which is a model that isn't viable for SW simply because it is a very domestically driven franchise (the nostalgia doesn't translate, several culture-specific references, etc etc) None of the F&F movies have crossed the 500 Million point domestically.

It just doesn't make business sense. Which I'm sure Kathleen Kennedy knows. Which is why she casts white leads instead of POC leads.

Sadly enough.


Like I said, she owes us nothing in terms of "representation". That's not her job. That's not her agenda. If anything, her agenda is feminist in its nature. Do I want to see my ethnicity represented? Absolutely. Do I want to see a non white lead? Absolutely.

But will I blame execs for not gambling with a huge franchise? Nope.

Also ad hominem attacks against @GingerByte just detract from your argument. So if you want people to take you seriously, I'd advice against name-calling and insinuating that a person is racist just for disagreeing with you.

 

Not at all. I was saying we need more diversity, but at the end of the day I'm not going to judge a film on whether it's diverse or not. I'm going to judge it on whether it's good. Exceptions pertain to certain characters being whitewashed where race is integral to the character.

Would it be good to have more POC leads? Absolutely, but diversity is also important. R1 had a very diverse leading cast.

 

You say that as if Will Smith was never a great Box Office Draw in this country or like the Rock isn't franchise Viagra. For a few examples.

But really what it seems you are saying is KK isn't Racist, America is Racist.

Some other things though
1) Most movies don't make 500 Million Internationally much less Domestically whether they have a white lead or not
2) Are you really trying to claim that Star Wars only made 500 million + in the USA and 1 Billion Plus Internationally because Daisy was White?

Cause Daisy was a no name when she got the gig so your argument seems to be any no name white actor is going to make more money then the biggest non white lead. Which is of course patently absurd....

Nor do I think that Star Wars can afford to rely on being domestically driven or has to Transformers and the MCU dont seem to have that problem.

I take it back Ginger compared to Lily your a Saint carry on. Although I think you can admit your wording wasn't the best.

 

Will Smith would have made an amazing Jyn Erso! So true.

True, but the day SW doesn't make 500 mil domestically, is the day SW fails.

Nope. Just that a movie with non-white lead has never made that much money before. I never said that it couldn't. I just said that there was no precedent for it and that it would be a risky gamble. Good job twisting my words. You have no argument, no proof to back up your claim, no statistics and no literature and so you attack me personally.

Never claimed to be a good person, Linnus. Just sensible.

 

You argument wasnt Jyn specific it was essentially any white lead will do.

And I am telling you that make KK a horrible business women if she couldn't expand beyond BO in America. No Franchise of note can stand these days without significant foreign BO. Nor do I think its impossible when other franchises have shown the jump. I mean go through the list Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Transformers, Nolan Batman and MCU. None of them had to rely on 500+ from America or Britain to make absurd profits.

Sensible yes that is one word for what you are not what I call you after that argument but sure lets go with that.

 

Arguing with you is pointless. You're just going to call me racist and insult me, dislike all my comments, so you know what? You win! I refuse to engage in your toxic bullcrap.

Also, guess what?

It changes nothing at all. Kathy Kennedy is still going to be head of LucasFilm. She's still going to make movies. Rey will still be the protagonist.

So, yeah. Go howl at the moon some more.

I'm done

 

@Linnus I'm getting the impression that @LilyInTheSkywalker seems to be speaking more from how Hollywood thinks rather than her own personal opinion.

Europe, AUNZ, all those regions make up foreign box office, not just Asia.

 

I don't pull punches Ginger. And if Lily cant take the heat that is not my problem.

Especially when their argument is White People are just so racist that there is just no way a Franchise like Star Wars could make a Billion with a non White Lead. And therefore KK is perfectly justified in never casting a non White Lead.

I mean really the argument is basically the same one that sexist trot out to stop those white female leads Lily loves so much from ever getting a shot or as few as possible. Oh well female action movies on average dont make as much as those staring white dudes therefore no Exec should ever green-light such a project.

 

So basically you're saying White America won't be comfortable with a PoC main lead. Well Trump getting elected certainly proves that race does matter.

"It just doesn't make business sense". Sometime ago having a female lead was considered a stupid decision. Now look where we are. Surely they can start taking risks with PoC too now? Especially when foreign BO is becoming stronger by the day?

I know Hollywood isn't going to embrace diversity because it's a good thing to do, but because money talks. They can't depend on American BO forever.

 

Give up, babe. This guy isn't going to be cordial regardless of what you actually mean. He's just looking for a fight. The cantina is supposed to be a place where we engage in civil discussion. I refuse to participate in being hateful.

And Europe, AUNZ, Canada etc follow American BO trends pretty closely. Asia has a very strong domestic movie industry and western movies don't usually do all that well.

For example - China and India have their own film industries and so does Japan. Regional language movies do much better in Asia than Hollywood movies do. So expanding there is really hard. And for a franchise that relies so much on prior knowledge of it and nostalgia, SW has a harder time still, considering that OT didn't get a release in China and other Asian countries until much later.

It doesn't matter if I argue with actual BO trends or that I repeatedly state that I disagree with the situation itself, I'm just going to be called a racist for suggesting that casting white leads is just playing it safe (regardless of the fact that I'm neither white nor American)

--- Double Post Merged, May 14, 2017, Original Post Date: May 14, 2017 ---

I'm saying that historically, the WESTERN audience has responded better to white leads than POC leads. That's literally my point.

Also, could I ask why you disliked my comment? I wasn't stating any personal belief just researchable trends and facts.

 

I'm not a controversial person, and hope to not be too political at these forums, but since the thread popped up, it's in the open. I do think this thread is a little strange. What I mean is not that we shouldn't talk about it, because the response is clear it bothers people. And that's a judgement on society as a whole, that people would even care what race, gender, or sexuality a character is. The reason Starwars needed to catch up with the progress made is two fold, one because women and minorities were extremely under represented in the universe, and two, we need it now more than ever. Even from a health of the universe standpoint, Starwars had to reach a bigger more diverse world.

Of course Disney, Lucas Films, are making an effort to diversify. Yes, having a female run the show is likely a strong influence. That's exactly why we demand more women in power. More minority coaches in sports.

Star Wars has always been a white male dominated universe. And that is the same as western society as a whole. Making ST and RO led my a Female and minority doesn't even come close to evening the slate. That's what makes this angst so absurd. But why is it there?

A HONEST ANALYSIS OF THIS QUESTION MAKES THIS NEXT PART UNAVOIDABLE​

The idea it's a problem that Disney is making an effort to diversify is absurd to me. I can't help but attach it to the same backlash that gave us the absurd notion of "Make America Great Again" which whether you support it or not was clearly aimed at making American less diverse at the top. An absurd notion took hold that laws favored one race and gender over another--and that came from the same warped idea I've read in some of these comments.

Too much diversity created a backlash in the United States--enough to elect a guy so clearly unworthy of the presidency that one had to ignore a whole lot of warning signs about how bad this would get to still go with him when by every objective measure he'd be bad at it, and he is, he's a complete disaster. Just saying.

No, Disney/Lucas Films isn't pushing an anti-white mal agenda, we (I am a white male) are aptly represented in the universe. It would take 4 more movies and a truck load of other mediums to even see equity.

Nothing cracks me up more than white males (yes I'm making an assumption here about some of these comments) complaining about women and minorities getting too much attention.

To put it bluntly, suck it up buttercup, it's happening. As it should.

Even if Women and Minorities don't do well as leads (not sure if that's true), what better movie to break that trend than a mega hit like Starwars. You breaks these kinds of things by proving consumers wrong.

Footnote: not all or even the majority of comments worried about the things I discussed. This comment goes towards the debate as a whole and not just in these threads.

 

Because you argument fails on the most basic level.

If the argument is don't take risk then why cast any Women as a lead?

After all on average white dudes leading action movies do the best..ergo we must stay the course and just never cast a women as lead period.

So my point is where you wanna draw the line is simply arbitrary BS.

 

I don't think George would choose a racist person, KK to lead his company. I mean the man said white slave owners in an interview for chris sake, and he married a black woman. Anyway it doesn't mean KK is or isn't racist but I think she my be biased, and rather choose actresses that resemble her, or fit the role best. She has a successful track record. I think thats why wise old George chose her to take over. Just my 2cents feel free to flame me to hell. I work 17 hours a day, I pop in and out of here to kill the boredom at work and get a good laugh. And I love SW...

 

Well some would disagree with you on the Creator...Nien Nub, Jar Jar, etc.

But certainly making the case KK is biased and simply doesnt give a **** is much easier then proving her a Racist.

I should note that I view Racism much Like Sexuality as a Spectrum.