Casting, Racism, Sexism and Kathleen Kennedy

I've repeated this multiple times. I never said that they shouldn't just that they've ALREADY taken a risk with a female protagonist. To make her a WoC would be doubly risky.

That's all I've been saying.

Jesus. You're a hateful human being

 

Complains about Ad Hominem Personal Attacks then Repeatedly Relies on them. Hypocrisy at its finest.

You cant have your cake at eat it to. Its either Risk adverse or diversifying.

By your argument we should queue up a Black, Asian, Hispanic, Etc Male because like Rey or Jyn they only count once.

I assume by counting you are referring to deviation from the White Male Standard.

 

Good point... but why would the creator pot a POC as the second baddest Jedi on the Jedi Council?

 

I just read through a whole bunch of this. and its maddening to read all this stuff. and confusing.

So, KK has an agenda to hire only brunette British women whenever she can, cool, people have bias. maybe she's an anglophile.

George Lucas cast Luke Skywalker & Han Solo as white men in the OT and Qui Gonn as white men in the PT when he had no need to.

Qui Gonn especially could have been of colour as he had no previous saga history (Obi Wan & Anakin did) they could even have made Qui Gonn female....yet George obviously had his own ideas for the character and went with them.
KK is entitled to do the same thing as she is helming the franchise.

Also since Casting Boyega, Lupita Nyong'o and the cast of Rogue One. and now KMT I don't see how the argument holds up that much that she is being sexist or racist.
The casting of the new Star Wars films has been really good in terms of diversity. However with both the leads so far being white & female, I see that there is room for annoyance but the casting on these films is vastly more diverse than most franchises in American cinema or even in stand alone american cinema.

I get a strong under current from this thread that actually what people are annoyed about here are 'Women' taking the roles of 'Men' and that the raciest aspect is being used as a smokescreen for sexism against female actresses.

I think it would have been ideal maybe if Rey had been played by a POC and Finn by a white man, just for the sake of a counter-argument. if there had been a female POC treating a white guy the way Rey treats Finn, there would have been just as much, if not more of an uproar. possibly from a different group of people.

But if that's the case, then the situation becomes nearly impossible unless the whole cast is POC, or fully white. which is why I'm saying its actually a sexist issue and not a racial one. I don't think it matters what ethicity you make Rey/Finn, some people had a problem with a woman treationg/showing up a man. (See all the Mad Max:Fury Road arguments for a fully white version of this argument.)
The fact Finn is black and Rey is white, is an added element to his, which highlights lots of issues around representation, but I don't feel like animosity towards the new female leads would have gone away by making them POC.

Plus, Rey could easily be linked to Saga characters, most of whom are white. and even if she's not, I think we are supposed to speculate on the fact she 'may be'
so for that reason her being white & Brunette is actually important.

As for Jyn, yeah I don't think there was a 'reason' to cast her as Felicity Jones beyond KK and the teams preferences. but then again, almost every super hero is a white guy with brown hair, so its not KK and Starwars leading this thing. Marvel, DC, harry potter....almost any franchise is worse at representation than Star Wars. Even Star Trek features two white male leads, with everyone else as support cast.

This honestly sounds like an excuse to pick on a woman (KK) for casting women in films. which is a sad argument considering the state of american cinema.

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Also for the record because it Irked me when I read it:

Rey may be a Mary Sue but Ripley from alien isn't.
Shes weak and scared and no more practical or likeable than any of the other cast member in Alien. its not even apparent in that film who is the main character, and that's the point, as it keeps the suspense of 'who will die next' at an all time high.


In James Cameron's Alien, Ripley is a bad ass, and that is to show her progression, but she is less bad ass and capable than the marines, the only thing she has over them is the fact she knows about the alien creatures. She becomes incredibly skilled thought those two moves, and in a more believable way than almost any other action hero (par, perhaps Sarah Connor)

post Aliens I wont even comment, the sequels are garbage.

 

@Maximillian I absolutely agree with everything you've just typed.

I'd also like to add that I find the amount of hate Kathleen Kennedy gets gobsmacking. She hasn't done anything a thousand male producers wouldn't have done in the past, present and I'd venture, even in the future. She's made decisions based on precedent and trends. Kevin Feige is lauded as a savant producer and yet he has only JUST slated a female-led Marvel movie. He has only JUST slated the Black Panther movie. After a decade of white, male characters.

He doesn't even get half the hate Kathleen Kennedy does.

How's that fair?

Why does it fall to Kathleen Kennedy to be the progressive decision maker? Is it because she's a female? She's held to higher standards than any male producer before. Which is such bullcrap.

Name one other large franchise with even half as many POC as the recent Star Wars movies. I can't. She's already doing as much as she can to bring in representation for all minorities. And she still gets hated on.

She's produced two WILDLY successful SW movies which have not only been financial successes but also critically successful. She has successfully launched a female protagonist, a black co-lead, two widely beloved Asian co-leads, a South Asian co-lead and a character who is heavily coded as being gay.

She get's NO credit for these things. She ought to be the poster-child for a progressive icon and instead, she's called a racist? A sexist?

Y'all are impossible to please and I wonder if that's why so many people rather not try at all.

 

Alien/Aliens are not horror movies. They are science fiction drama about a crew that has a really bad encounter.

 

Alien is horror, Aliens is action.

 

That "accident" of hers, saved Han and Chewie who were about to be shot by the two gangs.

 

BB8, Han and Finn were just there for the fun of it. Rey was doing well on her own and didn't need them at all. She had already evaded capture, used Force powers on the fly and was already near the exit by the time the others got to her.

 

Alien is most definitely a horror film.

 

I don't give a rats fat a** whether its a female lead or a POC lead or a damn bright purple blob with multiple tentacles lead. JUST GIVE US A GREAT STORY FFS!!!
I've ridden the expectation and disappointment roller coaster from the prequels to TFA and its making me nauseous. Loved RO BTW.

 

That is great @LadyMusashi care to explain her rapid mastery of Force Powers? Why the Falcon doesn't need a co-pilot perhaps? Also I should note that no one doesn't not need to be a mechanical genius to scavenge parts at all. Plenty of people in third world countries have to struggle to make ends meat digging through trash piles and dilapidated Ships. And the vast majority don't know much about Mechanical Engineering.

Beyond that I think @Maximillian covered pretty well why the Finn and Rey relationship was going to be problematic and get criticism. Although I argue in the context of America, White Women and Black Man has certain additional baggage that should get considered. However, the problems with Finn aren't just about them directly where Finn is shown as inferior in every way possible to Rey even at fighting which considering his background he should be better in.

Finn has plenty of problems elsewhere. Rey exacerbates the problem sure but Rey didn't run the bait and switch marketing campaign. Rey is not why Finn drinking from a trough with a pig like animal is a problem, or getting named by Poe or not knowing explosives with Han, or getting choked by Chewie or not beating a stromtrooper are all issues.

 

I firmly think Rey is a Mary Sue. Just because you can explain away in back story why she is 'exceptional' it doesn't mean that her actions on screen are believable.
She has the same wide eyed optimistic outlook as Luke, yet she is savvy, worldly and street smart without any of the jaded or pessimistic views that usually accompany such a character.

She has no flaws, thus she must be a mary sue. Same as Batman is.

I have no problem with this, there are so few strong female characters in cinema that I'll take what I can get, but call a spade a spade. She's like all the best bits of Han & Luke rolled into one. That said I love her character and I find her a lot more engaging than Jyn who came off as under developed and without charisma to me.

 

Who doesn't love the BatGod?

I think Nolan did a good job toning Batman down quite frankly.

As for Jyn, yeah that movie went through heavy revisionism. Jyn saying "I Rebel" was widely trashed.

 

Batman is a very capable but mentally broken man. His whole crusade against crime in Gotham is fueled by rage and his constant bereavement of his parents. He has trust issues, is unable to form a stable relationship with any woman he falls in love with and keeps on putting his children (Robins) in danger of injury or death. He is as broken of a man as most of the members of his Rogues' Gallery. The only difference is that he tries to help the police and citizens of Gotham. If you want to look for some Gary Stus in literature, then Aragorn and Legolas are probably better candidates, especially their book versions.

 

Yes but it almost got them killed and finn... yet she saved him in the endl

Well said! Great post.

Damn right. Thats how i feel.

 

But yeah, Batman is an example of a Mary Sue, because his bad traits-
Gritty past, ansty loner, risk taking...are actually good traits in disguise. so neither Bruce Wane or Rey have any 'real' flaws, which I count to mean they're mary sue's
Still it never bothered me with Batman as he is the exceptional hero pitted against exceptional odds, and I'm fine with Rey too, I'm sure in this trilogy her exceptional skills will be tested.

I completely take your analysis of Aragorn and Legolas, albeit that Tolkien's use of characters is really more symbolic than anything else, and functions allegorically (despite what the author himself says)

That said, again, I have no problem with that. Aragon is a great character both on screen and in the books. So I take no issue with the Mary Sue/Gary Stu-ness thing. Which is why I have no problem with Rey being one. I just think people go on about it with her cos she's female.

Its really not something that bothered me at all when I watched TFA. I don't care if she's over powered/flawless as long as the narrative is strong. I was just pointing out that she lacks any real flaws, but then so do a bunch of male characters that fans love.

 

Me neither. I adore Rey, Aragorn, Legolas and Bruce Wayne. I just believe that Batman character's flaws are of greater importance than you consider them to be.

 

Well sure but unlike Rey they trained.

they didnt magically get their skills as the plot demanded.