Does anyone care about the characters that are left for Episode IX?

Kylo is a victim of evil??? If I couldn't tell the difference between a victim and those that commit evil I wouldn't be NYC Correction Officer for over 12 years. You can continue to insult my opinion but I am more mature then that, have a good day, enjoy your fictional romance. LOL

 

yes, he is a child. a child who is utterly ruled by fear.
he's never been able/allowed to grow up.
his remarks to Luke in the final confrontation demonstrate how absurdly out of touch he is with anything like adult responsibility.

now that Snoke is dead, maybe he will have a chance to grow/learn and understand accountability.
his clear realization that he blew it entirely with Rey is a glimmer of hope that he can/will.

 

Each and every character in this saga has a kill count that would guarantee multiple life sentences. After all, didn't Han shoot first? What about Cassian Andor murdering his source in cold blood?

The day you start equating a fictional character's morality to real-life situations is when you stop appreciating any nuance in storytelling.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2018 ---

Kylo Ren is perhaps the biggest victim of "the Darkside". Even more so that Anakin. He's been groomed by Snoke, a predator, since before his birth. And none of his family was able to protect him.

"Han was Han about it" says Luke. He dealt with his son's growing darkness by denying it and taking off to smuggle or whatever. Leia was far too busy with the budding Republic. Luke tried to help until he made one terrible decision to strike down his nephew. He regretted doing that so much that exiled himself to an island to die. But the damage was done.

The kid never had a chance.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2018 ---

I'M SURE YOU ARE

 

right??? jeez, Ben, seriously. what a child.



i see a lot of people complain that Kylo Ren cries so dang much all the time.
it's because he doesn't have the maturity to deal with even the most basic emotions; he's a mess.

 

He literally looks a chided child.



It's heartbreaking when Ben tells Snoke that he's given him everything he has.

 

geh ~ i know! and the way he says it: like he actually doesn't understand why Snoke is screwing him over.
even though he knows--in TFA he knows--that his father is right. he's still clinging. it's so pathetic and heart-breaking.

 

So your point is that as long as horrible things happen in the real world, no one should be allowed to be bothered by things that happen in fiction?

Kylo Ren is hardly a helpless victim. He is never depicted as powerless, either physically on metaphorically. In his emotional struggle we see that he is perfectly capable of telling the difference between right and wrong, and yet he repeatedly pushes aside the "light" and chooses to embrace "darkness". In each movie a character that cares about him offers to help him find his way back from the darkness, and each time he refuses.

Having imperfect parents is not a valid excuse for acts of violence against the innocent. Was Kylo Ren a victim of evil? Perhaps, but that doesn't justify his actions. Lots of people are victimized by evil and don't then become practitioners of evil themselves.

The whole point of a morality play is to comment on real-life. Fictional characters are, in fact, only interesting because they reflect real-life. If you stop equating a fictional character's morality to real life, you've stripped the work of any meaning.

The kid had nothing but chances. He had two parents that loved him - that didn't give up on him even after he embraced evil. Not getting enough attention from your parents does not justify murdering people. Everyone will be tempted by evil at points in their lives. In Kylo's case, at best, he didn't have a strong enough character to resist, at worst he intentionally embraced it - which is what we are shown of him in the films. He is twice given the opportunity to follow the path back to the light, and both times he refuses. Even after Snoke was killed, and there was no longer anyone influencing Kylo's choices, he still chose the darkness.

 

It's alright to be bothered, it's alright to dislike, it's alright to hate something in fiction. But it's frustrating to see someone referring to a good thing (love, romance) as "sickening" just because they dislike one of the characters involved in a pairing, WHILE ignoring what is truly disturbing about the story.

He absolutely IS helpless. If you can't see why, it's because you have no idea how manipulation and physical/psychological/emotional torture work. Notice how I'm using "torture" and not "distress/pain/disappointment". But he's only helpless while Snoke is alive. Now he's free to choose for himself, and he'll probably choose right eventually. He already did the best choice of his life by killing Snoke. And if you wonder why he didn't turn into holy angel Ben Solo as soon as he killed Snoke, why he didn't run off with Rey to the Resistance...again, it's because you have no idea what a relationship like that between Kylo and Snoke implies, and what are its repercussions. And I'm not going to explain it, I already did it once on this forum. As for the first time he was offered help...Yeah, I wonder why he didn't run into his father's arms after being neglected by him and sent to live with an uncle who, as far as he knows, is a cold blooded murderer.

Imperfect parents? Try awful parents. When you can sense that something is after the baby IN YOUR WOMB and do nothing, you're an awful parent. When your son is born with a gift and you wish it would just go away, you're an awful parent. When you lie to him his entire life because you're afraid he can't handle the truth, you're an awful parent. Need I go on? There are some for his uncle too.
And yes, lots of people are victims of evil without becoming evil. In fact, most victims of evil are great people who wouldn't even think of doing something horrible. But what if the goal of the abuser is to turn the victim evil? What if the very purpose of the manipulation is to destroy the good in the victim? What then? We're not talking about a situation where the abuser takes all their frustration and anger out on an innocent, helpless person (which would be horrible enough), we're talking about a situation where the abuse is tailored in order to weaponize the victim. Do you see the difference?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2018 ---

Too early for congratulations. Also, I explained exactly how a relationship similar to that between Kylo and Snoke works TO YOU. I see nothing stuck.

 

This is the first of a number of assumptions you're making. We have no reason to believe Kylo was tortured by Snoke.

That's complete contradiction. If Kylo was helpless while Snoke was alive, he would not have been able to kill Snoke. In fact, his killing of Snoke is proof that he was, in fact, not helpless at all.

Here you're exaggerating my point with the "holy angel" quip - but it doesn't change that you're assuming things about the relationship between Kylo and Snoke.

That's some serious spin.

It was never established that Ben was neglected - just that he felt that way - which could just as easily be based on his own insecurities as anything Han and Leia failed to do. Just because parents have important jobs, doesn't make them bad parents. There's no indication that Ben wasn't loved and cared for as a child.

Wishing that your son wasn't born with a "gift" that would at the very least put his life in constant danger, does not make you a bad parent.

Your interpretation of what was written in Aftermath is extreme to say the least.

All parents hide things from their children until they think they are ready to handle them - and based on Ben's emotional shortcomings, it certainly seems like they made the right call there.

As for Luke, one can understand why Ben would not react well to the events that preceded him slaughtering his fellow students. But you act as though it occurred in a vacuum. By that point, Ben has already turned to the dark side. And it's not as though that was his very first interaction with his uncle.

You're just assuming that Ben was abused by Snoke. At the time Ben is sent to Luke, there is nothing established that would lead us to think Ben was suffering from long term abuse. Leia sensed a darkness in him - but she never sensed the pain that would accompany the type long term abuse that would be required to affect a person the way you're suggesting. And given what has been established about Ben's emotional stability, and the fact that he was a child at the time, it's difficult to imagine he could hide that level of pain from his force-sensitive mother.

Certainly Kylo was manipulated, but given his sense of entitlement coupled with his unearned power and his volatile temper, it doesn't seem like it was a tall order. What we see in the movies is a very sensitive person that feels easily slighted. He doesn't kill Snoke because it's the right thing to do. He does it because of the way Snoke belittles him - and to a lesser extent to save Rey because he wants to possess her.

 

hahaha And now I see exactly why nothing stuck.

 

To be brief, I care very much about these characters and can't wait to see what happens in Ep9. Okay not Rose, but Finn, Rey, and Kylo are pretty great characters IMO.

 

it's not a contradiction at all. Ben was able to kill Snoke because he had Rey there for her strength.
Ben is rather helpless on a lot of levels. he's a classic case of disorganized thinking due to predatory manipulation.

this is why it's hard for many people to understand him--and easy for others to defend him.

i wouldn't go so far to say Han and Leia neglected him, but in his mind they failed to protect him. his experience with Luke was obviously less than stellar.
i likewise wouldn't go so far to deny that he comes from privilege and probably had it pretty nice and easy growing up.
that doesn't change the fact that he felt abandoned, discarded, and as a result fell into the hands of a predator who warped his thinking.
emotionally/psychologically he's just a very angry, very powerful child who can't understand why what should be his gleaming perfect destiny is so painful and messy.

 

Search for my post on that in the Reylo (arguments pro and con) thread.

It's canon that they were focused on their jobs instead of their son, who was born with a serious threat hanging over him. A threat that could have been annihilated if he received proper attention.

The gift doesn't put his life in danger, Snoke does. The force is a part of him, wishing it away is like wishing HIM away. Here is an analogy: if your son was wanted for having an IQ of 180, would you wish he were dumber?

Where did his emotional shortcomings come from?

Says who? He's still not fully turned to the dark side, and he's been with Snoke for 6 years.

I'm not assuming he was abused by Snoke, it's out there for everyone to see. What movies did you watch? It's not even subtle, you don't need to study Psychology for a hundred years to see what's going on. As for that long term abuse...What about being hunted by Snoke since before he was born? Does that qualify as abuse?

Who said he hid it?

Find my post in the Reylo thread. Ask @RoyleRancor, he knows exactly what I mean.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2018 ---

Still no arguments, eh? That's unfortunate.

 

For the most part, I agree with your take. I certainly agree that he was unable to defeat Snoke without Rey there, but he was not helpless to think or act on his own. If he was helpless to do anything but obey Snoke, having Rey there wouldn't have made any difference.

All of those things that Ben felt, the things that made his susceptible to Snoke are legitimate, and it's why his story is compelling. You can understand how it could happen. But it was his own weaknesses that made him vulnerable, and both JJ and Rian have gone out of their way to demonstrate that Kylo Ren is in fact making choices for himself.

 

Tag me, I almost missed your reply.

I wouldn't insult your opinion if it didn't contradict the very essence of SW (compassion, love, redemption) AND common sense. And apparently your job didn't help you understand just what kinds of evil are out there. Tell me, did you know that some of those people (in lack of a better word) see the suicide of their victims as their greatest achievements, reminiscing about them from time to time? They keep those memories in the same way serial killers keep pieces of their victims. Of course, they never see a day of prison because psychological torture is almost impossible to prove.
But sure, you can differentiate between evil and victims of evil. Have a good day, enjoy your job.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2018 ---

hahaha This one is pretty cute.

 

yes, he is weak. absolutely. one of the juxtapositions we get from TFA and TLJ is how Rey is emotionally strong by comparison. despite her own horrid upbringing, she can make good choices (they're not all perfect, but she tries to be good). but by the same token, i'm not going condemn Ben Solo for not knowing how to make good choices when we know he's been poisoned since he was young.

and having Rey there makes all the difference. he's allowed himself to be vulnerable. he's allowed himself to accept help.
he believes in her (though even his thinking in this is so clearly warped). he begs her not to leave him. he doesn't understand why she wouldn't jump at the chance to accept his offer. this is helplessness. choosing to become supreme leader isn't so much a choice as just another set of shackles he's put on himself. for all his lecturing Rey about letting the past die, he's clinging so hard to an idea of legacy that he probably doesn't even really understand himself. not probably. clearly.

again, his inability to function as a reasonable adult is the direct result of his messed up upbringing. and everyone gets a share of the blame in that (including him). but thus far i have seen no evidence that Ben Solo ever had a chance to become anything but the disaster that he is. he lacked a stable foundation, confidence, strength of will, emotional fortitude. all those things Rey has in spite of everything.

i'm not going to condemn this kid for being weak, for falling prey to Snoke, for compounding it all with one bad decision after another.
he needs help. he rejected it once, he tried to accept it the second time, but failed. hopefully third time's the charm.