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General The Book of Boba Fett talk

Discussion in 'The Book of Boba Fett' started by Angelman, Dec 18, 2020.

  1. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    That's fair and great points!
    I'm just not entirely sold on the change yet. I feel like Boba could have had some interesting arcs as a bounty hunter in the same transitory vein as Mando (going from bounty hunter to father to eventually leader) and the Bad Batch (going from soldiers to fugitives and hired work). Then again, that may have made it more of the same.
     
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  2. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    The key difference, @Use the Falchion, is that we're working backwards with Boba Fett's story.

    Personally, I think it would have been interesting to tell Boba's story in a straight-forward, linear fashion starting with the Sarlacc. But I suspect there would have been a lot of fans complaining about that approach too (i.e. what's with all the Tuskens and boring desert stuff??? Let's get on to the juicier crime boss action!!!) The flashbacks were an attempt by the showrunners to essentially 'have it both ways.'
     
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  3. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I mean, we still hear the complaints in the episode reviews on this very forum, and not just from me! So clearly something's not working as intended with the flashbacks.

    We're doing both, working backwards as you say, while also working forward. It's not impossible or even dangerous to do. (Although it can be logistically troublesome.) The Stormlight Archive books are built like that, with certain characters having flashbacks that tie into the core theme of the specific book. Arrow's entire schtick was having flashbacks to the point that the most successful seasons had the strongest flashbacks. (The Flash attempted this in their first season, to mediocre success.) Shang-Chi had a multitude of out-of-order flashbacks that all worked to move the characters forward by contrasting who they were to who they are, and then forcing them to come to terms with both sides.

    But clearly this isn't working for everyone, so my idea above was nixing that entirely (again, not because flashbacks as a tool are bad, but because they aren't working in this particular story very well) and working the present-line story as a transition ground for someone who is going to need to be a leader and figuring out how to tie that in to where I think The Mandalorian is going. But at the end of the day, I'm not saying my idea is better. I honestly don't care that much; it was just a quick thought at the end of the day, after all.

    But this conversation does raise an interesting thing about flashback arcs that I hadn't fully considered. The reason the flashbacks work pretty well (3 well-received flashbacks out of four for Stormlight, and about 3.5 good flashback story arcs out of five for Arrow) in the aforementioned series is because there was a visible growth that viewers could experience. Kaladin didn't start out as a slave, Shallan's clearly has some issues she's avoiding, and Dalinar is/was feared by everyone for a reason - exploring those paths allowed us to see how the characters became who they are. The same is true for Arrow, as Oliver went to the island a playboy with no ambition, skill, or morals really, and he came back driven, cunning, skilled in a variety of ways, and possessed some semblance of a moral code (that admittedly was twisted, but it was there). BoBF isn't really like that. In the flashbacks Boba is a Bad Mamma-Jamma (every fight against someone that isn't a Tusken Raider is a fight Boba wins) that is being retrained for reasons that I still don't fully grasp outside of the symbolism of a man being reborn; and in the present Boba is a weaker man who wants something not too different from the flashbacks. (Again, I'm willing to give the explanation about the Bacta Tank time, as not everything needs to be explained at once.) But there's no real sense of growth or progress, at least not to me. The Boba Fett we see in the flashbacks is too similar to the Boba Fett we see in the present for me to think this is really necessary.

    But I'm late to some stuff, so we may need to pick this up again another time.
     
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  4. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    Sorry, but I don't buy the "some SW fans are complaining so clearly something's not working" line.

    Wants something not too different from the flashbacks? I must have missed it in the OT or in the early flashbacks when Boba Fett told us all that instead of being the galaxy's best and most badass bounty hunter, what he REALLY wants to do is rule an empire.

    You talked about 'visible growth' in the flashback stories you've enjoyed in the past -- but you've seen no growth in Boba Fett's flashbacks? Ironically, one of the complaints I've heard here is that Boba is a mere shadow of the badass we saw in ESP. Apparently we were supposed to ignore how Boba's survival from the Sarlacc and the grueling effect that his time as a Tusken hostage has had on his body.

    One of the aspects of the show that really works for me is Temura Morrison. In Temura's portrayal, its easy to imagine a younger Boba Fett who was an 'all business' loner and a badass bounty hunter who was living up to the family reputation. But we're shown in the flashbacks how Boba's post-Sarlacc experiences are causing him to reconsider his past. Wouldn't the old Boba Fett have killed the whole tribe the first time he had the opportunity? Instead, he bonds with his former-captors. In fact, we see Boba view the chieftain as the father-figure he never had after his own father was beheaded.

    Boba's 'vision quest' initiation into the tribe brought to mind other questions: Is he more than just 'a reboot' of his father? Does his induction into the Tusken tribe mean he has a greater purpose beyond following in his father's footsteps?

    The flashbacks have a much greater story yet to tell. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how they come full circle to the Boba Fett we see today.
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    None that really relates who he is in the present to what's happening in the flashbacks, or that is necessary for either to happen. In the above examples, the flashbacks served as a missing link for the characters, not just answering what they did like BoBF is doing, but also asking who these characters were.

    Oliver Queen again was a playboy trust fund kid who came back as a vigilante on a mission. Why is he on this mission Where did it come from? How did he learn these skills? How do Oliver's traumatic experiences on the island inform his brutal practices in the current day?
    Kaladin in the first chapter was an esteemed soldier. How did he become a slave? How did he get to be a solider in the first place? Where does Kaladin's mistrust of light-eyes come from, and why how does it impact his decisions in the present?
    Dalinar was the most feared warlord on the planet. But why does everyone fear him? And why can he not remember his wife's name? (Or more accurately, what were his boon and curse?)

    When we look at Boba Fett, the questions are simpler and frankly not nearly as interesting.

    Boba was gone for five years, what was he doing? He was hanging out with Tusken Raiders! Cool, that's, like, a one-episode max explanation. (Which you can and probably should justify as the flashbacks taking that episode and splitting it into different sections.) Why does he want to be a crime lord? Because it's a better lifestyle? Sure, I guess, but that's, like, a one-line explanation that they haven't bothered with. Because there's power involved? Okay, but since when is Boba Fett power-hungry? Sure, you could link in the respect of the Tuskens to the type of leader Boba is trying to be, but that also makes little sense. Respect is earned, not assumed, and that is something that Boba should have realized and remembered LONG before the Tusken Raider arc, assuming that's where this is all leading to.

    The plot of this show could have easily had Boba come to the same realizations that you claim he does while being an antagonist to the Tuskens, or even ignoring that plot entirely. And now that I say it, that's what I wish the flashbacks were. Show us a younger Boba Fett first working for Jabba the Hutt. Show us the Tusken Raiders as antagonists, but honorable, more honorable than the people Boba was working for. (A theme that Three Outlaw Samurai, one of the inspirations behind The Last Jedi, plays with.) Show us Boba working in a system of fear and maybe wanting a little more, but also realizing he's trapped by the Hutts and the Empire. And then contrast that with a free Boba trying to build something out of respect. That way, even if the past doesn't answer questions that are intriguing to the present, it can be at least a parallel narrative.*


    Yet in the very first episode he takes down a monster twice his size after all of that abuse you mention. In the second episode he takes down a biker gang without much problem. Boba is shown to be weak around the Tusken Raiders but strong everywhere else in the flashback. It's inconsistent and annoying. The grueling effect of the Sarlacc is implied, but that may not be the reason for the Bacta Tank, particularly because of the examples above. (After the first episode, Boba is no longer treated as a slave, but as an adolescent warrior in the clan.) I don't care about comparing Boba Fett to who he was before the show - although his reputation before the show does mark the growth aspect; but this is about the combat aspect - I'm comparing the two versions we see within the show. Boba is as strong as the plot needs him to be, and it's annoying.


    Yet in the very first episode, the first thing Boba tries to do when captured is run. The next time he's in the desert, he laments the fact that he offered the Rodian a chance to run with him. And then he suddenly decides to go back to the tribe with the boy after killing the monster instead of running...why? It wasn't a realization that it was "the right thing to do," nor was it a saving grace for others. It wasn't because Boba was not so different from the rest of the bounty hunters that he couldn't return, nor that his capturers had suddenly transformed into his family (yet). It wasn't out of respect, because none was given to him, nor admiration, because the Tuskens hadn't done anything admirable. It was because that's what the plot wanted to do, and until they tell me otherwise, I have no reason to believe otherwise.


    That's okay if you don't buy it. But I can go back through the threads of the past three episodes and see it. I can talk to those who watch this show in real life and listen to them explain it. I can see the tendrils of it in your very own justification as to why the flashbacks exist instead of a linear story.

    I hadn't considered that, and I'll definitely try to look at it this way the next time the flashbacks come up.

    And I'm happy for you for this. BoBF was not a show I was sold on, cared for, or cared about. I don't care for the setting, titular character, or plot really, but I felt the exact same about The Bad Batch before it aired, and I came to really enjoy it by the end. (I still have my grievances, but overall I do recommend it.) I was really hoping that BoBF would be the same and prove my initial expectations wrong, and it really hasn't.


    *A very good Arrow example is in the fifth season. Flashback Oliver is going through an initiation process to join the Russian mafia, while Current Oliver is learning to take on a bigger team of vigilantes to replace his old team. In doing so, Oliver decides to train the new heroes in the same way he was initiated into the Russian mafia. At the end things diverge - in the present, Current Oliver ultimately foregoes the training initiation and decides that to build the new team, he needs to trust them. Meanwhile Flashback Oliver rallies his team to succeed in the initiation, and they are all killed by the mafia outside of Oliver, because he was the only one who showed initiative.
    The main point here is that if flashbacks aren't narratively related, they can be thematically related in showing two circumstances and demonstrate growth of character by having the same person handle the same event two different ways at two different times in their life. Maybe Boba will do that with the Big Bads, but I doubt it.
     
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  6. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    Rereading my earlier comments in this thread, I think some of them came off sounding more confrontational than I intended. Sorry about that @Use the Falchion. For the record, I enjoy discussing TBoBF with you and other fans who have issues with the show.

    IMHO, the show is less about 'what happened to Boba?' than it is about 'what has changed Boba ?'

    BINGO! "Why Boba wants to become a crime lord?' is the show's million dollar question!

    Three episodes in (as of this post), we still haven't been given the answer to this question yet. But rest assured, the show has given us every indication that the answer lies at the very heart of Boba's Season 1 story arc.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Wow, really? I don’t know. The distinction seems decently pronounced to me. The optics of the Boba character, pre-revival (in my observation anyway), were of an insulated lone wolf. Someone only concerned with his own wellbeing and success.

    The Tuskens introduce an element of community and cooperation. And that’s what he’s making use of in the present day storyline. He’s building a new community around himself that’s gathering numbers based (so far) exclusively around principals of charity and mercy. Seems like a pretty clear ‘cause and effect’ to me. No?

    That’s not to say it couldn’t have been executed better. Sure. Probably should have reinforced what his characterization was BEFORE his ‘rebirth’. But there’s enough there for me to appreciate what they’re going for.

    My only detraction is still the befuddlement surrounding why I'd want this guy to succeed in his goals as the ‘Emperor of Crime’. I don’t care how honorable he runs his criminal empire if the common people are still being exploited in essentially the same way. The more the series goes on without addressing that room elephant, the more I’m OK with a scary Wookie bashing his brains in. And I’m pretty sure that’s not how the show wants me to feel.
     
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  8. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    Well said. I couldn't agree more. Wish I could give you a 'great post x10'. :) :) :)

    At this point, all of this is pure speculation, but I think the show is planning to wrap up the season with all of us going, "Ooooh, now I get it!!! So THAT's why Boba wanted to take over Jobba's crime empire from Bib."
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    That’s definitely my expectation at this point. If for nothing else, I doubt a Disney series is going to land on the side of a ‘pro crime’ message. I'm sort of twiddling my thumbs for now :)

    The premise, to me, has this murky parallel to Thrawn taking over the Empire in Zahn’s post Jedi novel way back when. ‘I’ll lead through respect instead of fear’. OK, but what is it that you’re wanting to lead again?
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Not a problem, and I definitely enjoy discussing the show with you who enjoy it as well. That's the main reason why I keep watching it in the first place.

    I don't think the question itself has even been set up well, and I'm not entirely sure I agree. I think the main question is instead "how will Boba lead" as opposed to why he wants to lead in the first place. Nothing in the show is asking the question of why. The main crux is how. Will he lead honorably, like the "oh-so tragic" Tusken Raiders? Will he fall into the Hutts' old practice? Or will he be as ineffective as the mayor?
    The why doesn't come up in any themes, flashbacks, or subtext outside of what we put in for now. And yes, the why could come up and inform the how, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

    Canonically he was a lone wolf willing to cooperate with others, if the mission called for it. He did so in the Darth Vader comic as well as during his arcs in TCW. I never had the perspective of him not being able to work with others, simply that he didn't prefer it.

    But you still have to sell me on something that he should have learned already, at least partially canonically. Again, he's able to work with others in TCW, and IIRC, several of his appearances in TCW were based around garnering the respect of his peers. The principals of charity and mercy aren't ones I've seen in the Tusken Raiders, at least not in this show. The Tuskens enslaved Boba and only let him go after he saved one of their kids and earned their respect. That's different from mercy.

    And I'm glad that's the case for you. This show isn't my least favorite thing ever, but it's certainly not for me in any way, shape, or form outside of Ming-Na Wen's amazing performance and the community discussion.

    Because of HONOR!

    [​IMG]

    Honor makes everything run better! ;):rolleyes:


    At least Thrawn believed in the Empire and garnered results. Thrawn knew when to lead with respect, and when to use fear, and used them both with proficiency. Boba...not so much.

    I hope so. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, but who knows.
     
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I imagine they’re operating more from the public perception of the character rather than the extended canonical material that most viewers probably haven’t bothered with. Regardless, occasionally working with others because of necessity, isn’t the same as being part of a family. One is about using others. One is about caring for others.
    Right. Boba is the one that led with mercy . . . and the Tuskens reciprocated. They didn't have to. From there is where they built their familial bond. And that's what he's attempting with the new family he's building.

    The experiences he had in the past with the Tuskens are directly informing his actions in the present. Mileage may vary on the quality of that connection, but it's definitely there.
     
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  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    And mercy that went exactly against his main goal earlier that episode. I can get Boba not wanting to kill the kid, but I don't really get why he still didn't run away. It feels like an excuse in order to make the plot work and making sure we see him as the good guy. It's like why TBB were given Omega and why we see them being bullied by the "Regs," so we can justify rooting for them despite giving as good as they supposedly got in their first introduction.
    But at this point it's probably just a personal/cultural overlay that I can't understand, rather than a character thing.

    The whole show is, which is a major reason why it's failing for me. The entire show is built on Boba's in-world and real-life reputation and infamy. If you don't care or believe in it, then the entire premise of the show falls apart. But outside of that, ignoring the extended canonical material is still a bad call. So long as it's canon to the story and released material, I believe it should at least be acknowledged in both the character's worldview and for story purposes. Not always included, but always considered. Lucasfilm has Star Wars lore keepers for that exact purpose after all.

    That's a fair and really good point, but it still doesn't justify why Boba went against his original intent and back to the Tusken Raiders. There were other (and preferably better IMO) ways to handle this arc than how they did, both in terms of flashbacks and present motivation.
     
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  13. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Probably so. It likely was intentional to present him as sympathetic to the audience. Maybe that did a disservice to the character, but there’s logic in that decision I can’t begrudge.
    Whatever Lucasfilm might say on the matter, at this point, I’m personally treating the different mediums as different continuities. So, with respect to this show, I’m choosing to engage with it on its own terms and if the story it tells me doesn’t totally line up with a comic book or a cartoon, I’m alright with that.

    I’m curious about this version of the character and his journey in this particular narrative. I want to see how it unfolds and how he evolves. I want to stay openminded to whatever.
    Maybe he realized there was nowhere to escape to, being in the middle of a desert? He didn’t know about Tosche Station yet, I guess? <shoulder shrug>
    No disagreement here. I’m still digging on the underline themes though. Hoping they’ll pull back the layers some and get into how this guy, with this massive mosaic of baggage, rectifies his past. Maybe we won’t get there though and that would be a bummer. But ‘c'est la vie’.
     
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  14. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    As the writer of this series and The Mandalorian, Jon Favreau has had a challenging balancing act on his hands. He wants to please the hard-core fans while also engaging newbies and making them fans without confusing them with character backstories they don't understand.

    When I first watched The Mandalorian Season 2, I hadn't watched SW Rebels or Clone Wars. But the appearance of characters from those series didn't lessen my excitement or make me feel like I'd somehow 'missed' something. In fact, it did just the opposite. It made me want to go back and learn more about the characters by watching those shows.

    I understand the black wookie, Black Krrsantan, is from the comics. Yet his introduction worked for both newbie and hard core SW fans alike.
     
    #174 Darth Derringer, Jan 15, 2022
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  15. Mando LXXXV

    Mando LXXXV Rebel Official

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    I for one never have an issue at all with fan service in general and especially when done like in the Mandalorian or now in Book of Boba Fett as explained.
     
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  16. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    Kudos for posting this video, @Mando LXXXV! That was The Best Description I've ever heard on the subject. One of the things it did a great job of is explaining (by showing) the difference between great 'fan service' and really bad 'fan service.'

    I find I do get annoyed when some high-brow critic dismisses ALL fan service as bad writing. For the life of me, I've never understood how bringing a favorite fan character into the story would be bad storytelling if it rings true to the story and advances the plot. One of the things I admire about Favreau's scripts (for Mando & for TBoBF) is that he introduces characters like Bo-Katan, Ahsoka, and Black Krrsantan in a way that excites Clone Wars and comic book fans without making newbies feel like they've walked in halfway thru a movie. On the contrary, Favreau's scripts have caused many new Mando fans to want to watch the Clone Wars or new TBoBF fans to pick up a Doctor Aphra comic book.
     
    #176 Darth Derringer, Jan 17, 2022
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  17. Mando LXXXV

    Mando LXXXV Rebel Official

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    Well said!
     
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  18. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel Official

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    I'm interested to see how Boba gets/finds Slave-1. I'm guessing it had been parked either at Jabba's Palace during ROTJ or possibly in a space port. Either way, it's not likely to be where he left it after all this time.

    I seriously doubt we'll see it, but I'd like to see how Bib Fortuna and Max Rebo survived the destruction of the sail barge. I'm guessing if that were going to be shown, it would have already been done.
     
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  19. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel General

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    If my memory is accurate, the ONLY trailer shots we've yet to see are: 1) the shot of Slave-1 and 2) the mob boss meeting. So I'm going out on a limb and predicting we'll finally get them both in Episode 4. :)

    I agree. But I'm in the camp that says some things -- particularly in a sci-fi show -- are sometimes best left to our imaginations.
     
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  20. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    This was my initial standpoint also. Being one of those that saw the OT in theaters from the beginning, I always thought that Boba was nothing more than a purely incidental character, and I cared not for his backstory. Of course then the PT trilogy aired and the clones were then built on Jango/Boba's bloodline....fine, but I still panned the Fett show in development.

    I just wasn't a fan...never was, and yawned at the prospect.

    However...

    I wondered to myself "What really could you tell us about him??" and imagined that we were gonna get a bunch of hit-and-miss stories about his occasional bounty collections over the years (yippee), but when this started with the pit escape, my attitude changed about the show and decided to lean back and at least give it a chance, and I haven't really been disappointed, even with the flashbacks, which to , but then there was the "Scooter gang", that made me shake my head, but hey...whatever, I'll just move past it and go on.
     
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