Holdo and Rose - was there a contradiction?

It's more like a parallel and a theme in this movie. Luke sacrificed himself and Rose's sister sacrificed herself as well. Poe even was willing to but for the wrong selfish reasons.

 

Yes it is a contradiction. There have been some valid points made (specifically the influence on mass on the effectiveness of a hyperspace attack) but the problem of course is that we have inconsistent adherence to Physics in SW universe (example, we see Hosnian prime destroyed for Takadonna in TFA which should not have been possible).

I'm not so much hung up on the physics here, but the mindsets of the people making the run. We know that Holdo's attack worked, but there was NO way SHE could know that it would. There was no way that she could know that the fragments that traveled through the Supremacy disabling it would splinter in a wide enough field and still have enough energy to penetrate and disable the accompanying Star Destroyers. In the end Holdo simply did the only sensible thing. Die then, as opposed to dying later.

When the Resistance Capital Ship "ran out of fuel" in the process of drawing the FO off of the fleeing ships escaping to Crait, the FO would have eventually overtaken it and destroyed it and Holdo would have died. Instead she is forced to try to take out the most immediate threat (The Supremacy) to give the Resistance a chance. There's no way she knows for certain it will disable all of the remaining Star Destroyers, who if they weren't destroyed, would just continue firing on the fleeing ships.

Finn can't be certain that ramming the canon will take it out; for that matter we can't be certain either. Maybe it would. But Rose's intercession creates the contradiction. Because now we have both characters trying to give the Resistance a chance by sacrificing their lives, and one being praised for it, the other being critiqued for it.

 

Let's not forget that Poe gave the order to retreat. He gave a direct order for Finn to pull out. Don't remember exactly why, but perhaps he saw it was hopeless, and that they should live to fight another day (or immediately after in this case). I think Poe says something like: "The cannon is charged, it's a suicide! All speeders, pull out!". "Retreat Finn, that's an order!". Poe learned his lesson. Rose heard this, of course, and tried to talk Finn out of it.

Then everyone pulled out but Finn,. who insisted in charging ahead.

So, apparently, Finn's suicide would be fruitless, by what Poe realized. Finn was obcessed about it though. It the last minute, Rose saved him. Of course, when you're watching the film for the first time (again the same issue), you can't grasp all of this, because you're seeing it through Finn's eyes, believing that he can take it down when in fact he never would.

Holdo's scenario is different in my opinion. She was running out of fuel and knew that she wouldn't go far. Remember that the original plan was for her to maintain her course, to divert FO's attention from the transports. To go on a separate course from the transports, and the FO would follow her, buying time until she would run out of fuel. That was the plan.

However, the plan was discovered by DJ's treachery. At that point, the game changed and Holdo saw an opportunity to maybe, eventually, take a few down with her and perhaps have a chance at preventing the resistance from being slaughtered. That's what she did and it was the right call given the situation.

So, both Holdo and Rose made the right call and there is no contradiction in that sense. Because while both scenarios involved suicide, in Holdo's case it was a good call, as she had a good and final chance to protect the ones she loved, while in Finn's case it would have been a bad call because apparently there would be no chance to prevent that cannon from firing, believing in Poe's assessment of the situation.

This may be a problem of execution though, as while this all makes sense to me, and is even quite satisfying from the writing point of view, I don't think it's clear enough watching the movie, especially for the first time. And, I think this is a recurring issue in TLJ. The script seems to be good. The dialog. All seems to be there and it makes sense. The characters point of view, etc. However, when they translated all that to film it doesn't seem to hold in some places, unless you watch it several times, and are willing to give it a chance of course.

 

I think the movie tries to portray Holdo's sacrifice as one from the right way of thinking. It's all about doing it out of love and goodness for her troops.

Then with Finn, it's supposed to be coming from anger and hate and wanting to get back at the enemy. (but I honeslty didn't feel that until Rose says her now famous line. At that point I just thought it was more of her weird sense of right and wrong, but after digesting the movie, I realize we're supposed to see her as right on that point)

The failure I think is that as viewers, many still weren't sure about how they felt about Holdo after the movie had ramped her up as an antagonist to Poe. We weren't sure if she was a spy for the FO, or just plain mean. Her orders lacked a certain kind of sense (especially in the way it was written). So for many fans, there was no sympathy for Holdo (or less) and I think by this point the potential for a subversion was being anticipated. It made her sacrifice less because fans weren't invested. Only after she completes her run do we realize she was good (and not pulling the wool over Leia's eyes).

With Finn, we'd already seen Holdo's sacrifice. More to the point, we also know Finn is a good guy. There are no mixed feelings about Finn (or Poe and Rey). So if the situation looks as bleak as it does, and Finn sees this as the only hope, we're sadly on board. Rose, much like Holdo is recently introduced to us. Her whole character arc is one that we're scratching our heads about (saving the animals and leaving kids behind). She doesn't strike many fans as being that intelligent. We also don't feel the love from Finn, she looks more like an obsessed teeny bopper over Finn, but has strange ideas about right and wrong. When she "saves" Finn, we realize she could have killed them both, and that she sabotaged an attempt to save the Resistance. We had just been told there was no way out of this cave base, so we're still running on that fact. We believe her sacrifice just killed the resistance.

Having the new ambiguous character of Holdo do the sacrifice lost something. Had they kept Ackbar around, we'd have trusted it more.

Had Rose had more logical decision process and less (earthly) politically motivated views and done so in a way that didn't endanger both their lives, it would have fit more. I think it could have been done in a way that made sense (sabotaged the speeder so it can't move) and been less confusing. RJ failed to make the distinction clear, though if you dig deep enough and write in a bit of story you can figure it out. To some people that's great writing, to others it's most definitely not.

 

"Well if droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?"

So if I'm to take you to your logical conclusion here, you wanted a droid to be piloting the Raddus in the first place correct? Then you want the droid to see the situation where the FO is blowing up the Resistance escape craft and turn the ship around and jump to hyperspace to destroy the Supremacy. Am I hearing this all correctly?

 

To be honest, taken on its own I think that the "saving the ones you love" speech itself is a bit of a contradiction, since that's exactly what Finn was already trying to do.

However, I think that different characters having different motivations, all culminating in a complex portrayal of a concept isn't a bad thing, though, assuming that's what was intended.

With Holdo, we see an obligation and responsibility. She's a leader, and if she didn't take action the escape pods would be picked apart piece by piece. She's also wildly successful at damaging the First Order fleet, even Snoke's ridiculously big ship.

With Finn, we see two people trying to play hero. Finn trying to save the Resistance, and Rose trying to save Finn.

In a way, I could see both Finn and Rose's actions as evidence that Holdo's sacrifice not only saved the Resistance, but inspired them to also act selflessly. So Holdo's maneuver doesn't necessarily contradict Fin and Rose's message, but actually explains it.

 

You have a very narrow mind. No..., Have you ever heard of Drone technology? Now take that and place it in an era where you have Star Wars.

Let me break it down.

Program droid to fly into enemy ship...Kick feet up and watch.

 

So you have multiple capital ships that you're going to run into other capital ships basically resulting in a kamikaze war where whoever has the most capital ships wins? I still don't understand your logic.

 

You have a serious reading comprehension issue don't you? One word at a time. I, at no point said anything about the Raddus. The point was why doesn't anyone actually use what Haldo did as a weaponized for of attack.

A
Fleet
Of
Drones
Set
To
fly
into
enemy
ships
at
hyperspace
speeds

 

Multiple people have given you proof of small craft like X-wings having no effect on Star Destroyers when jumping to hyperspace. A drone wouldn't even make a dent on a sizable ship. So you apparently are the one that lacks comprehension or perhaps just an attention span.

Since you probably haven't read anything in the thread anyways here's the pertinent bit.

 

Was it just me or did it seem like one capitol ship for many enemy capitol ships? I thought there were 6 or 7 that got destroyed or severely damaged.

With that logic an x-wing probably wouldn't destroy a star destroyer, but it would cause a heck of a lot of damage. Aim it at a bridge and you can probably rend a SD inoperable, at least for a good while before they sort out who's in command, get a bridge crew in place on their back up bridge and then get the ship back operable. They'd lose a lot more life than the one pilot and that ship would probably have to spend substantial time in dry dock getting repaired. They would lose high ranking officers while you lose essentially one soldier.

If an x-wing is deemed too small, how much bigger do we have to get? B-wing? Transport? The idea is not to totally destroy the enemy ships, but to make them inoperable at the cheapest expense. Resistance forces die all the time in battle, so if you're going to die, why not do as much damage as you can before you go? Morality usually takes a back seat in war, and I don't think morality would weigh on the FO. Space battles will have to be carefully crafted to explain why this strategy isn't being used on either side.

If mass is all that is required, I'm sure the FO would build some ships or hyperspace missiles with enough mass to be able to use this strategy. The damage was extensive, far reaching. I'd say almost as shocking as what the DS did in ANH. Greater than what the DS did in RotJ do the rebel fleet.

 

Spoiler: Tarkin Book

Don't think they were in hyperspace, but didn't Tarkin's ship get attacked by reprogrammed kamikaze Vulture Droids at the beginning of the book?

 

To answer those questions it has to be assumed that Holdo didn't know if her plan would work. As has also been pointed out in this thread a single A-wing flew into a Star Destroyer bridge and brought that down so it probably has a lot to do with whether or not the shields are up on the ship.

 

Simple physics.. If I throw a bullet at you, it isn't going to do a lot of damage... If a bullet hits you going the speed of light, it would vaporize you. So, an A-wing jumping to hyperspace is going to do a hell of a lot more damage than an A-wing flying into a bridge in normal-space.

 

That was my understanding too... it was a Hail Mary desperation move. But now that it succeeded, and damaged a fleet quite severely, I would assume both sides would take notice moving forward. I can't believe that the whole fleet had it's shields down.... not while in a chase with an enemy, I'd have to think they'd have some sort of shielding up in case of a surprise attack. When the rebel ship turns, I'd think the SD shields would go up, so either the mass of the ship overwhelmed the enemy ships, but that still doesn't explain the damage spreading to the other ships.

I'm not saying that the writing was wrong, just that it sets a new precedent for future space battles. Defense strategies will have to be made to answer it, attack strategies will be made to exploit this advantage. It's a move that will change space battle moving forward, or they'll have to come up with an explanation why it cannot be used in the future.

The A-wing crashing wasn't in hyperspace, so it's completely different. Nor did that A-wing's attack spread like this one did. This one forked like lightning, devastating everything around it. They can do a retcon saying both drives hit and cause this unusual effect, or that it hit where all the missiles and torpedoes were stored, or there was some experimental equipment on one of the two ships and that's what caused the chain reaction. Either something gets explained, or new strategies need to be drawn out, because there's no way that either side would ignore those events moving forward.

Seeing this play out on a game like Empire at War would be interesting. That way maybe we'd see how lucky, expensive, ect... this move can be. I'd be interested in figuring out a defense to it. Just observing as a fan watching the movie though, I'm thinking far reaching implications.

 

nah, there's no contradiction.

firstly, Holdo's story and the lesson learned from that arc is related to Poe, not Finn and Rose; they have their own thread going with its own thematic elements. Holdo/Poe is about the responsibilities of leadership while Finn/Rose is about morals and doing the right thing.

secondly, i think that Holdo's self sacrifice does two things for the story: it finishes the Holdo/Poe thread while foreshadowing a kamikaze run so that the audience is set up for Finn taking his own life only for Rose to come in and finish their thread.

 

I guess the difference would be no one loved Holdo enough to save her (like Rose loved Finn).


Adding:
I think that scene/action would work so much better if Leia did it. Afterall she is the rebel's leader. Something about making her cover away on transports and in a hole in the ground on Crait that contradicts with how I percieved Princess Leia. But i guess that what happens when one becomes a General.

 

We both wrote the same things at the same time...LMAO!
Or similar things...anyway *nods awkwardly*