SPECULATION Huge Theory About Episode IX & The Last Jedi

You refer to the Sith like they encompass the entire evil/dark side. They do not. They just use the dark side, like the Jedi use the light.
With the Sith destroyed, evil still exists. It is in everyone. And there will always be evil things going on.

The point is, when the Sith are around, there is a lot more evil going on. EVIL IS EVERYWHERE.
So the Jedi destroy the Sith and good and evil are on par in the galaxy again.

 

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2017 ---

@master_shaitan A whole organization like the Sith can't be entirely evil it's impossible 'and it's also pretty clear the old Jedi Order was extremely flawed in the prequels and new canon continues to add moral nuances and YES grey sides to all sorts of people. End of story.

 

The Bendu wasn't the only one. You are forgetting the father from TCW Mortis Arc. He was power and control personified, the one who was strong enough to restrain his two children, the light and the dark. You could even say he was simply the Force personified.

I wish I would have saved it, but I read an article some time ago now where the story group was discussing how the trilogies portray the Force. I'm going from memory here but the PT was about the Force in action, being wielded in the normal course of business so to speak. Midichlorians, Jedi hierarchies and tradition, etc.

The OT was about the will of the Force, or the Force as an active motivator, the Living Force that binds the universe together.

The ST would be about the Cosmic Force, or how it all and how it ties together what we saw in the PT and OT.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it go the way of Luke's New Jedi doing away with the trappings of the order and getting back to the roots of it all. It's pretty obvious when you think of how he failed when trying to establish a new order that was destroyed by a wayward student. This would lead him to question what the Force really "wants" and why he went looking for the First Jedi Temple.

 

I mean in universe. George is a great revisionist. He always presents things if they were intended to be a certain way to begin with, when if you look at what he has said about different things at different times you can see his vision changes as he gets older. TBH I think George, though he is to be praised to the highest for briging us Star Wars, made a hames of the resolution.

 

Can you name a time he contradicted this?

 

I don't mean made direct contradictions, that's not what I'm saying, the chosen one prophesy was a massive retcon. Making it the rise and fall and redemption of vader was a retcon. Originally the OT was about Luke, the PT was going to be about Anakin and then he decided the whole thing would sit better if it was all about Anakin even though he doesn't have the screen time necessary for that in the OT.

 

The dark side is not a point of view. There are specific characteristics that lead to the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. Greed, lust, selfishness, hate etc.

The Jedi became too much about their own doctrines that they forgot about the living cosmic force. This happens in modern day religions as well. The Jedi became arrogant which led to their downfall. It doesn't mean their basic tenants were wrong. They just lost sight of them.

Keep in mind the term "the light" was only used in TFA. Luke referred to it as the good side. Luke says - "I can save him I can turn him back to the good side". "How can I tell the good side from the bad?" "There is still good in him". Never once does he mention "light".

The force can be represented by good and evil, but represents peace. Balanced force is simply the galaxy in harmony. It doesn't mean bad stuff isn't happening, it just means no major conflicts where the force is used for evil purposes. Evil people (Sith, Dark side users) that distort and pervert the force are why it's out of balance. Only the Jedi are powerful enough to see past the gray and defeat these people. "Without the Jedi there can be no balance in the force."

 

But it is all just from the perspective of the Jedi and the Sith!

What you have to understand is that the Jedi and the Sith are relatively a small group of religious fanatics among Force-users!
A Force-user who is compassionate and selfless and fights for the weak, isn't automigically a Jedi! Just like a selfish, greedy Force-user isn't necessarily a Sith!
They are what they are!

It's the perceptive and the disposition of the Force-user that determines it's path.
The Force in of itself is not Light or Dark, it just is!
It's the Force-users choice for either Light or Dark that twists and divides the Force into Light and Dark. The Jedi chose Light, the Sith chose Dark!

Force-users like Ahsoka and the Bendu do not divide the Force at all!
They use THE Force, all of it! And they are aiming for balancing the perpetual motion of the normal cycle of nature, life and death ("Death is a natural part of Life!" - Yoda), creation and destruction! It's natural for all living things to have a beginning and an end! A tree-sapling grows into a tree and when it's natural time is up, it dies, falls down, decomposes, fertilizes the soil beneath from which new saplings can grow big and strong!

A Force-wielder who is compassionate and selfless can channel darker energies through oneself, without being tempted, because they are focussed on the task at hand and do whatever is necessary to finish it!

It's the willpower (or perhaps 'Will's-power) that helpes a Force-wielder to resist temptation!
Saying that is impossible, is illogical! It's the lie that people tell themselves and others, when they cheated on their partner!
Whenever I'm in a relationship(with a woman, fyi), you can put me in a house teaming with skimpy-dressed or even naked women and the 'temptation would go no further than maybe a few naughty thoughts in my head!
I would never act on it! Guaranteed! Because of what I believe is right! And that's what strengthens my resolve!

If that is what you believe "Then you are truly lost!"
No, I don't think it works that way, there will allways be those who will stand up and fight against injustice!

Maybe in this context is wiser to frase it like: "A well-trained and well-composed Force-wielder (compassionate, selfless, constructive and unbiased) could channel anger to produce Force-lightening to disarm/incapacitate an opponent"
(don't get what you meant by vice versa... that an 'evil' force user could use happy thoughts to use 'Light-powers'? I don't think so. You see, it's when you choose a side, that is when you determine your path for 'good' or 'evil'! And that will greatly limit your options!)

Ah master_shaitan, we meet again...
I'm still convinced "The Force" is in itself neutral! It encompasses both, but is neither!
Like I stated above:
"It's the perceptive and the disposition of the Force-user that determines it's path.
The Force in of itself is not Light or Dark, it just is!
It's the Force-users choice for either Light or Dark that twists and divides the Force into Light and Dark. The Jedi chose Light, the Sith chose Dark!"

It is in the Force-wielder we now must place our trust! When both Jedi and Sith are gone, the neutral Force-wielder will protect the galaxy from dominantly destructive forces that seek to disrupt the natural balance of nature!

I get the feeling more and more it all depends on willpower! But what is hatred but love mixed with anger? One cannot hate something without loving it (to a degree)!

Exactly, as long as there are Force-users who willingly divide "The Force" in Light and Dark, there absolutely cannot be true balance!

 

I agree the Chosen One was not his original intention until he decided to write the prequels. I despise the Chosen One prophecy but have to live with it.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 7, 2017 ---

I would argue that there are too many instances when the force intervenes on behalf of the light or good side. I also believe the reason Sith or Dark Siders cannot become one with the force (force ghost) is because they aren't "holy" or good enough to live in the presence of the force. The force seeks harmony, balance. The dark side users upset that harmony with their destructive use, therefor are rejected.

 

Ahsoka is still very much a Light Side user. She's just not a Jedi. Bendu does not draw from either Light of Dark. He's outside of this conflict (at least that's what I got from my non-viewing experience of Rebels season 3.)

But the Light Side and the Dark are very much a thing. The Ones, which personify the Force, consist of the Father, who stands for the Force, the Daughter, who is the Light Side and the Son, who represents the Dark Side. True, the children don't encompass the whole Force and draw power from their Father, but they are still an existing part of it.

 

For the doubters, this is certainly worth a read.

Also, I love these theological debates about the nature of the force.

 

People are really glossing over the Chirrut Imwe thing here I think. He is a canon, on-screen practitioner of the force. 'All is as the force wills it' seems like a pretty all encompassing statement, it does not say 'sith lightning is a perversion of the force' it says ALL is as the force wills it. He is noted in the Visual Dictionary/guide to not adhere to the light/dark dichotomy. So, I don't understand how people can argue against it.

I see how he wasn't a Jedi. but that doesn't stop the force from working through him, any argument about a necessary light or dark seems ridiculous in light of this character. Chirrut seems to let the force guide him, and it seems to act benevolently. in many ways this is in keeping with Jedi belief. However the Jedi's fear of the darkside...and it was exactly that, made them un-able to use the force in its purest form (as Chirrut does) because they were weighed down by doctrine and responsibility. They read the prophecy 'someone will bring balance to the force' through a very specific Jedi lens, seeing the dark side as unnatural and needing to be destroyed.
I think Chirrut would have interpreted that differently, because when you use the force, let it flow through you. it natural doesn't have a dark side. the force isn't dark. in the same way that life and death are not dark. Humans like to polarise, the universe does not need to.

if you let the force flow through you, aid you, guide your judgement I do not think it would ever exercise a 'dark' influence over you. and if there is no dark there cannot be light. if one simply is, then you exceed the use of the terms. the light in my opinion and the dark are jedi concepts and nothing more. Chirrut found no use of those terms as he simply listened to the force. That is also why Rey beat Kylo Ren. in that instant the force worked through her, while he is rejecting the force as a whole currently, focusing on bending it to his will.

Bending the force to your will (sith) is not in harmony with the force, the jedi were right about that. But the Jedi's dogma does not let them truly be at one with the force because they must always be checking themselves to see if they are veering down a dark path. they are guarded and reserved.

Within Chirruts experience I think its safe to say that 'no path is dark if you let the force guide you'

That was not the way of the jedi though. they put clear walls up to stop Anakin being tempted, that was their will, not the will of the force and that is why they failed.

And yoda even tried again to stop luke following a path when Luke went to confront Vader in ESB. he thought it would lead to a dark path, and it does put luke in danger, he loses and hand and almost dies. However it is actually that very moment in ROTJ when he looks between his own robotic hand and his fathers that reminds him of their similarities both good and bad.
So without following his gut, the call to save his friends and losing the initial fight with Vader, Luke may have failed in the final test against the emperor. I would read lukes following of his gut as him allowing the force to work through him, and I think his confrontation with Vader in ESB was also the will of the force.

 

Again though, there is a misconception here.
The writer talks about how the story of The Ones (father, son and daughter) contradicts Lucas' idea that balance was restored when the Sith were destroyed.
It does not.

That Clone War story was a direct metaphor for how good and evil in THE GALAXY and by extension THE FORCE needs to be balanced.
When that balance is disrupted, nature is corrupted.
The Jedi seek to maintain this balance. They do not and cannot destroy all evil - but they can ensure that evil does not dominate over good.
The Sith on the other hand seek to empower the evil in the galaxy so that it does dominate the good. And that is why the Jedi must defeat them and that when they do, balance is restored.

But the whole father/brother/sister thing was saying exactly the same thing - that good and evil must be balanced.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2017 ---

Argue against what?

This was essentially how Qui Gon acted and he passed on that wisdom to Yoda.
Yes, the PT Jedi were too reliant upon their power and the cosmic Force and failed to concentrate on the moment, distancing themselves from the living force.
The dark side itself clouded the Jedi's vision - it clouded the cosmic force and thus their power was diminished. But had they been intune with the living force more, then they perhaps wouldn't have been so blinded by the Sith.

Yes, the Force has a will. And that is what guided Chirrut. But it is this will that the Jedi should (and did) listen to. And the will of the Force desires balance. And that is the role of the Jedi - to serve the Force and maintain the balance. They do this by destroying those who seek to spread evil (the Sith) and destroy that balance.

But that is important. That is how people should think - they should always question if what they're doing is right or wrong. That is where the PT Jedi failed. They became too arrogant and didn't question their role. But the Jedi have a vital role to play. They have to fight the Dark with the Light to ensure the balance remains. If they don't then the Dark will take over.

Indeed. But the Force won't guide you down a dark path. It will always lead you down the compassionate and selfless path as that is the only way of keeping the balance. The Jedi won't stop the Sith from spreading evil if they act selfishly or with hatred. They have to be compassionate and selfless to fight against the Dark and balance it with light again.

No, the Jedi trained Anakin that way so he could clearly hear the will of the force and not act on his own selfish desires.
Had Anakin been "calm...passive...at peace" then he would've known the right thing to do. Instead he acted irrationally and emotionally and it was his undoing.

That is a good point and implies a further mistake by Yoda. However, it is understandable considering the events from their point of view and they know that Luke is still young and rash and still attached to an idea. But yes, if this is the case then they should've perhaps been more open to his point of view...

...that being said, Dave Filoni commented recently about what Yoda said and suggested something I have thought too - that Yoda and Ben weren't telling Luke to kill his father because that is what they really thought he had to do but so that he would find the right path himself. That is to say, it wouldn't have worked for Yoda or Ben to say: there is good in your father, you must redeem him. Luke had to discover that himself, and Yoda and Ben knew this. It is about faith in his feelings and in the force. Again, Filoni said this and he has had long conversations with Lucas on the subject. I think it is plausible. Lucas also once said in an ambiguous quote that Kenobi wanted Luke to redeem his father. So it is a possibility and worthy of discussion.

I think Luke certainly was right about his father - but it was through his training that he was able to succeed. It was Yoda who trained Luke to let go and resist the Dark Side. Had he not learned that from the Jedi then he would've turned to the Dark Side.

 

I like all your points on this and find talking about the force very interesting.

That is a good reading of how and why Yoda and Obi Wan acted the way they did. In the same way that in the Matrix it was only to Oracle telling Neo that he was not the chosen one, that allowed him to become it.

This possibly shows that Yoda learned from his mistakes with Anakin.

The Jedi did give Anakin rules and markers so that he could clearly hear the will of the force without being tempted, that is true. But that approach rarely works, being told something is bad is not the same as seeing why something is bad.

Luke walked an untested and potentially dark road (in yodas opinon) in ESB and this mirrored Anakins rashness. and it was the thing luke realised when he compared his own robotic hand with his fathers, how one of them could easily be like the other. he saw the darkness in himself and by extension the light in his father. Luke chose the light and his father was able to follow suit.

However I would say the 'brush' with the dark side that luke experienced both in his rashness in ESB and his anger during ROTJ allowed him to be more sure of himself in relation to the light.

Luke didn't ever seem to need to repress any of his dark feeling, he experienced them and moved beyond them, seeing how they were destructive first hand.
Anakin also saw how these dark feelings and acts (killing all the tuskans) were bad but his doctrine seemed to lead to resentment and feelings of failure under the jedi teachings. If he had been in a freer environment, such a luke was, to make mistakes and then reflect on them without feeling he was braking jedi 'code' he may have had a more harmonious existence.
That is why the dichotomy of Dark/Light is flawed because to understand one you must at least understand the other to a degree. its why the Yin Yang symbol had a little black dot in the white side and a little white dot in the black side. They are complimentary forces that do not function alone.

The Jedi outlawed certain roads of thought and feeling and it did not help them. Qui Gonn is actually a brilliant example of a Jedi. he was Intuitive and within Star Wars one of the first things we learn is that the force mirrors intuition. Lukes journey through ANH shows this multiple times.
Anakin was denied the right to follow his intuition by the jedi, not allowed to ask certain questions or follow certain roads. This lead to him seeking the Chancellor as an adviser and confidant...

 

Thanks. Me too!
Great point re: oracle. I think it could certainly be read that way.

Exactly. They allowed Luke to experience the Dark Side far more than they did with Anakin. That isn't to say Anakin didn't venture into the Dark Side himself because of course he did. It is just Anakin did everything behind the Jedi's back. Luke was encouraged to face the Dark Side and was open with his choices (try and save his friends in TESB and wanting to redeem his father).

Yep. I've read a lot of people's posts that suggest that Luke's actions in TESB showed how he was different to the Jedi of old and did the right thing there. But I feel this misses the point. Luke made the wrong choice in TESB and got away with it - just. But I guess the point is the Jedi allowed him to make that choice. You can see from Yoda's comment to Ben when Luke rushes off that he wasn't exactly comfortable with this way but nevertheless allowed Luke to make his own decisions.

Yep. This is what enabled him to become a Jedi. Yoda actually told Luke this himself: "Vader, you must confront Vader. Then and only then a Jedi will you be".
Where as in the PT we see Mace Windu forbid Anakin from coming with him. There is a distinct lack of trust - both in the Force (living force) and Anakin (though understandable in respect to Anakin).

Yeah, great point.

I agree with this - and it is certainly a point that could be made about the PT Jedi and perhaps links into the debate about Jedi having families etc. But I feel that Yoda and Ben learned from their earlier mistakes and that they understood what you have said above in the OT. It is all about understanding that you will always have a Dark Side and that it requires constant training to make sure you don't act on it but instead act rationally and thoughtfully.

This was the problem with training Anakin. The Jedi were used to training what were essentially "brainwashed" kids who had very little experience of the "real world". They tried to deal with Anakin in the same way. This coupled with Kenobi being a bit free and easy with Anakin meant that he wasn't ever given a clear path or able to truly deal with the obstacles that prevented him from being the Jedi that he should've been. And as you say, the way they then train Luke is different. Perhaps not all that explicitly - Yoda does still maintain a certain level of discipline! But they understand how vital it is for Luke to find his own path, to truly face the Dark Side.

Good talk.

 

In some way yes. But they are also inspired from Japanese warriors and their traditions and discipline. Also there's a big difference between being a monk and being the Dalai Lama.

 

I think people can get tied up when talking about who the Jedi are supposed to be like in the real world.
The Jedi's role in Star Wars is the keep the Force in balance. Everything else falls into line beyond that.
This means that the Jedi need to be able to be diplomatic, they need to be good warriors and teachers.
Essentially, they're there to stop the Dark Side from taking over.

In order to stop the Dark Side they need to be able to reject it within themselves and also know how to fight it.
That sometimes means literally killing the Sith. But sometimes it means redeeming them.
But what it always means is that a Jedi has to be compassionate and selfless. And in order to resolve the grey, they need to be:
"Calm, passive...at peace" - then they will know what is right and what is wrong.
Finally, and continuing from the above, a Jedi must be rational.
They must be think things through and listen to and feel what is going on around them. This comes from being calm and selfless and compassionate.
They can then hear the will of the Force, they can understand how best to deal with conflict and they won't fall prey to their own Dark Side.

 

I don't know... Though I must admit I'm still in season1 of Rebels, I have picked up a few things along the way! For instance, Ahsoka wields twin white lightsabers! She constructed them herself. One's position within the Force determines the color of one's lightsaber, because of how the ways the Force flows through one. She actually healed two 'bleeding' (Sith-dominated) kyber-crystals, so they became white! Partly because they had been previously corrupted, but it wouldn't surprise me it also had something to do with that she is very near the centre of the Force! Because (as most of you undoubtedly know, if you paid attention in your biology and science-classes) white light is an amalgamation of the entire light-color-spectrum!

Excellent assessment! Very insightful indeed!

Precisely! Oh ho, I see what you did there... 'first hand'

Agreed! And this is exactly why I think Luke is still 'finding his own way', beyond the limitations of the narrow Jedi-doctrine! Keeping the 'good' stuff and ousting the dogmatic rhetoric that essentially held back the Jedi, because of their fear of the Darkside!

 

Are you sure? I think Yoda adapted after the failure of the PT Jedi...