SPECULATION Huge Theory About Episode IX & The Last Jedi

It never seemed that dogmatic to me. It was more like if you weren't able to learn properly or resist temptation, you shouldn't be a Jedi. I think they're right. I think the Jedi Order failed because it was blindsided by the return of the Sith not because of their teachings. They were overconfident, complacent and comfortable. Palaptine's whole plan was to bring down the Jedi Order, he didn't really need Anakin for that. One very powerful Jedi goes astray and the Jedi should abandon ancient teaching that had been followed for centuries?

The teachings didn't fail, the Jedi council did.

 

Thnk you for this! Enormously reveiling and proof that I haven't been completely out of my... ehm... rear nether-regions!

@master_shaitan Give this link a try... read carefully and give the idea a fair chance instead of rejecting it outright! You might find it enlightening!

And concerning Yoda, he still was afraid of the Darkside in TESB! You can see it when Luke asks him about it (when Yoda is playing 'backpack')! That is how he's sure that Luke will be!
But at least he went so far as to let Luke 'find his way...'

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 8, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 8, 2017 ---

You must understand that most religions on earth contain dogma! It's when strickt and limiting rules and regulations are implemented, while common sense tell's you there shouldn't be!
It's when the rules forbid a certain route and when you ask why, they say: "Because it's forbidden! If you should break this rule, (insert relevant deity here) will strike you down!" or "If you should break this rule, you will not go to (insert relevant preferable afterlife location)!

In other words, whenever restrictions are in place, against logical reasoning!
When the feared and unknown is filled in with woolly absolutes!
That is dogma!

Hence my use of it when regarding the Jedi-Code! (Or the Sith-Code for that matter!)

 

The Jedi were a creation of their own teachings, and as such they were completely blind to the return of the Sith. Yes, the Sith were ultimately responsible for their demise, but the Jedi allowed themselves to become vulnerable. And it's not like they hit a bump in the road - they were almost completely wiped out. That's the sort of thing that ought to merit an overhaul. Besides, who's to say that the teachings they followed for thousands of years never changed during that time? Do you think that in all that time no one ever came along with an idea about how they could do things better?

 

To be fair, Yoda knew he problems. He said in AOTC that too many Jedi were arrogant - and implied that he was referring to himself and Windu as well.
The problem Yoda had was that he knew they needed to change but they were in the middle of fighting the Sith. He had to be cautious.
But yes, the Jedi were backed into a corner, partly because of their own blindness and largely because of the Sith's machinations.

 

They were also a product of their times and of politics. I don't think the teachings had much to do with their downfall. It was their own personal shortcomings. Lack of insite. Of course teachings and knowledge changes and is interpreted in different ways... but then did the Jedi Order get wiped out because as some claim of religious dogma? Or was it flexible throughout the ages?

I argue that their core principals and teachings didn't change... but it wasn't dogma. The dark side DOES lead to only hurt and the light must be used to fight it.

 

When religions don't change with the times, they lose their connection with contempory reality!
When their rules, principals, teachings and regulations are rigidly held on to without growth, then the risk of some turning into dogma is a reality!
The notion that Jedi aren't allowed to fall in love and have a family, is dogmatic! It is shortsighted and illogical!
They don't just teach padawan's to let go of old attachements, they forbid them to make new ones!
This is textbook dogma!
Seriously, look up the ecact meaning of the word dogma/dogmatic, then watch the PT again and you will notice it's presence!
(Mind you, this was done intentionally!)

 

Dogma has many meanings... "philosophical tenet" is one... meaning beliefs that they believe are true. You're thinking of the more derogatory meaning.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2017 ---

A central Jedi tenet is that the dark side will forever guide your future if you delve too deeply into it... has anyone shown this isn't true within the movies? Sure Darth Vader was redeemed, but it guided his path for decades. He gave in to it. How'd that turn out? The idea is that once you start using the emotions and ideas that utilize the dark side, you will lose your way, and eventually fully turn to the dark side. you can't be a little bit of a serial killer.

 

You do realize, while pointing it out, you're completely missing the point, don't you?

Yes, when one uses the term dogma, when discussing religion, it is usually as a form of criticism!
That is the whole point!

I'm not saying that All of the Jedi-Code is bad, or that the Jedi are bad! It's just that things are not as black and white as is stated in some rules within the Jedi-code!

Don't believe me? Just you wait and see what happens in the next 2 Saga-films... They have been spreading seeds of this throughout the SW-franchise! Movies, books, comics and the tv-series!

And for the GL-version-of-the-Force-rulez!-people out there, this seeding of expanding the ways of the Force was started in the Clone Wars-tv-series by GL himself!!!

It has also been proven by Pablo Hidalgo, if you won't take it from me!!
Click the link in the quote below and see for yourself!

 

Question: can anyone actually give a canonical recitation of the complete jedi code? The Sith code?

Maybe a separate topic...sorry to hijack the thread.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2017 ---

Found it in the thread about Dark Disciple:

Didn't realize Obi-Wan quotes it in the book...and I read it. Lol

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

 

OOps! Yeah, sometimes brains can be a bit leaky...

Thank you for these, does it describe the Jedi-rules and regulations aswell? What a Jedi is encouraged to do and what is forbidden?

 

I don't believe so...

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2017 ---

Welp, I asked Pablo and he replied, apparently not the full code:

 

The Bendu is simply wise enough not to think in this narrow Dogmatic terms, he sees the Force as a the wholeness of reality, not as something to be labeled in such Extremely Dualist ways. The best use of the light side is something that is seen as a providential thing in my view, namely that there is a greater power that guides our destinies, but It makes no sense when the Jedi Order wants you to be an Emotion less robot.

 

That's not how I think the Bendu works. I think he sees the the reason for the differences but simply doesn't get involved in galactic affairs. He can only give advice - like an Oracle or something. To be honest, he's not dissimilar to a Force ghost ("I cannot interfere"). He's a being that neither uses the force for good or evil. That's how I see it anyway.

I mean, Bendu wants balance. He is disturbed by Kanan's imbalance. Well, without the Jedi and their light side ways, the dark siders would run riot and plunge the galaxy into darkness, thus causing imbalance.

The fact is and the fact remains, that Anakin brought balance as a Jedi when he destroy the Sith.
A Jedi isn't going to be able to destroy those who spread evil by using evil themselves.

 

"Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together."

- Obi Wan of course

There is no evil in the force, only evil in beings who use it. Using dark energy is not in and of itself evil, these are judgements of lowly mortals and the force knows not of these things.

 

I wasn't saying that. I just meant that the Jedi won't bring balance by being evil (when I said "using" evil I meant anger, hatred and greed). In order for the Jedi to defeat the Sith they need to remain utterly in the light.

 

The Bendu said "an object can't make you good or evil" which is the right response to Kaanans (and the Jedi order's) ridiculous moralizing attitude in general. Arguing the Bendu wields the Ashla or the Bogan is contrary to what he said and to his character he doesn't. he is a centrist/grey force user. that's not debatable. My way of seeing things is I think the Bendu doesn't like the Empire and wants to help the rebels because the Rebels don't persecute other Force sensitives (besides Vader and Palpatine of course). Anakin was not a Jedi when he killed The Emperor he was a Mass murderer who was forgiven by his son who was a Jedi, but your point stands about the Sith, I just don't get how being angry is evil, it isn't inherently evil but can lead to it. I'd probably be a Bendu disciple, if I was Force Sensitive in a galaxy far far away.

 

As times evolve old doctrines change, but not drastically, or for your own needs.