I Can't Believe I'm Asking This, But is Rey a "Mary Sue"?

Luke is able to beat Vader in ANH and Vader is supposed to be one of the best pilots in the galaxy.
Luke evades him long enough so some bum in a beat up ship can blow him out of the sky.
C-H-U-M-P

 

How can you possibly compare "lack of amibition" to "almost getting killed by the Chosen One in a DS trench"?

Perhaps you didn't read the above posts.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2017 ---

Luke had lots of help from the other pilots such as Wedge, not just Han Solo. Besides, Obi-Wan was guiding Luke through the Force - so he certainly wasn't doing everything by himself.

 

I read them.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2017 ---

Ah, the point of the films. The Force and the choices the characters make, either gets your legs cut off and your wife killed, or you get to be the hero of the Rebellion. (And perhaps everything in between judging on Rebels & how TLJ goes)

 

Thanks for pointing that out. But I don't see why you make that comparison anyway. I didn't say anything about Luke almost getting killed by Vader, as a flaw. And yes, is it really a flaw? Probably not, since Luke had lots of help in the trenchrun.

 

without Finn, Han, and Chewie, Rey would be dead or in Snoke's clutches time and again.

she needed Finn to escape from Jakku.
she needed Han to get her to Maz's.
she needed Chewie to escape from Starkiller Base.

the only thing she managed to do for and by herself was escape from Kylo Ren and then drop him in the snow.
and you know what? that's more about his weakness than it is about her strength.

 

Did Rey just lose her father and take a bowcaster shot to the gut? No? Oh okay.
Did she escape SKB by herself? No? Okay.
Did she even fight Kylo by herself? No? Finn fought him first after she was KTFO by Kylo? Ohhhh.

 

Including the Force - "Hm, the Force is strong with this one" - that big plot element that creates the villain all on its own and seemingly, according to the same villain, enables Luke to evade the greatest pilot in the galaxy who takes out capital ships in his awesome TIE without breaking a sweat (if he can even sweat anymore..... ) in a trench with no space to maneuver without Han.

 

I hope that everyone in this thread could just chill out and realize that I was never the one who said that Rey is a Mary-Sue, and if you go back and read my first post you'll see that I actually defended Rey in this matter.

Please. Luke needed Obi-Wan's help to escape from the tuskens. He needed Han to get off Tatooine, and they both needed Leia to get into the trash compactor, etc, etc. Anakin needed an outsider to bet on him so he could not be a slave anymore, etc, etc.

These are not flaws.

 

It's an interesting point you raise. A lot of SW protagonists strong traits are attributed to their special powers.

Something else your post brought to my mind is, when you put it like that there arises an ethical minefield surrounding the idea of a Force conceived child like Anakin and the 'Rey Vergence' theories.

I've been taking advantage of current events to wisen up about consent and - if The Force has a will - I sense some serious ethical issues around the apparent lack of say that a woman like Shmi has in her miraculous birth.

OMG, the father is even called The Force.

 

Incredibly astute point.
If The Force did this on it's own...of it's own will...is that well, force rape?
Now if good ol' DP is the one who did it or Palps....that's a much clearer case of *actual* rape no?

 

Absolutely not. However I do not think the term "Mary Sue" is outdated. People say they dislike TFA because she is a TFA but I counter this argument by saying the same could be said for Anakin and Luke. And it's true. Both of them demonstrate incredible feats within the force. Sure you could say Anakin is the Chosen One, but still. That's just an excuse for him to be instantly powerful in my opinion.

 

Yes. She is.
Next question?

 

Rey is not a Mary Sue, she is force-sensitive.

 

Frankly, I thought Rey was a Mary Sue. I don't care if she was Force sensitive. That was not an excuse for her to achieve so much when it came to using the Force. She needed more training in order to achieve what she did in "The Force Awakens". And to be honest, there were times when Luke was in danger of being a Gary Stu (male version) . . . especially after one year of training via Obi-Wan's handbook in "Return of the Jedi".

However, for Rey, this was only the first movie. Hopefully, Rian Johnson made her character more complex and less perfect in the upcoming second film.

 

Anakin was a full blown Gary Stu.
It's part and parcel for Star Wars for the main characters to be wildly overpowered.

 

It's hard to believe this topic was yet again re-opened... How many times does this have to be discussed?

Exactly. Most solo characters from Star Wars (not only from the movies, see: Galen Marek) are overconfident and overpowered.
The reason why the fanboys are so vehemently paroting Max Landis's crap and blew this topic so out of proportions is because Rey is a female. "Yeah, but I liked Sigourney Weaver in Alien" comes the usual fanboy answer. They liked it because it's an old classic movie. Had that and other similar films been released today, they would shout "Mary Sue", "feminist" and other similar bollobcks as hard as they do now.

I especially find this recent "lets find flaws in Star Wars characters" game incredibly stupid. As if suddnely the sheer number of flaws made any character good... There are many good Mary Sue/Gary Sue characters (see: Arnold Schwarzenegger in Commando) and many terrible flawed ones. It all depends on the story and context.
We barely know anything about these new characters yet some people are already jumping to conclusions.

Except you have to, since it was presented to you via dialgue only and nothing else. In fact, having a sad/sappy backstory like Anakin's is most common Mary Sue trait.
He was the most well fed, well combed slave I've ever seen from any sort of media (fiction or real). He had time, money and energy to build podracers and robots for himself and for his mom (who also did what exactly to Watto?). He had friends, free time, laughed a lot had his own room etc. Overall, he seemd like a healthy, confident and happy kid. Go and watch The City of God or Slumdog Millionaire in comparison... Many non-slaves in our real world would happily change with Anakin's "slave" life.

Precisely. I mean he, an 8 years old kid blew up a main Warship in a space battle from a starfighter he's never ever seen before! He most likely hasn't even left the town he was born ffs! But yeah, all the crazy things happening around him, the completely foreign enviroment, the mortal danger was just a fun podrace for him...

Seriously whats more beliveable? That, or Rey defeating an emotionally unstable and severely wounded force user...

 

If Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke is definitely a Gary Stu. I've practiced martial arts for years, I love the art. To learn or master the simplest technique and utilize it in combat or a street fight takes years of practice, let alone wielding a weapon, sword/knife etc, (disarming an experienced opponent or even cutting a limb off, thats why I wasn't upset with how easy Finn was taken out in battle against Kylo ren master of the knights of ren). My master or instructor has seven different black belts(a black belt means nothing, its just the beginning of training, I have defeated black belts in the dojo) he is 58 years old, but he has a body of an 18 year old because he practices everyday, its a part of his life, martial arts is second nature to him, so for me to suspend my disbelief in Rey or Luke, they are indeed force sensitive. Everything Rey is good at is because she is force-sensitive. My master instructed me that everything you do in life should be done like Kung-Fu ( be the best in everything you do, when you clean your home do it as if you are practicing Kung-Fu)Films are subjective to each his own.

Real Life Mace Windu!

 

So what if its presented via dialogue? So what if its presented through visuals? It's not important, the only thing that matters is the story.

Having a sad backstory has nothing to do with Mary Sue traits, you should look up the term. A Mary Sue is usually not grounded in any realism and is a wish-fulfilment character without any flaws. They could have happy backgrounds or sad backgrounds, it doesn't matter.

For the record, I never even said that Rey is a Mary Sue, but I find it quite amusing that people are now jumping the bandwagon and calling Anakin a Gary Stu just because they get fed up when people call Rey a Mary Sue. The term Mary Sue has been around since the 70's, but nobody called Anakin a Gary Stu when TPM first came out. Likewise, nobody called TPM a rehash of ANH when it first came out. Let me ask you, since when did people start to call Anakin a Gary Stu and TPM a rehash of ANH? Well, after TFA came out. In other words, these people couldn't accept the fact that people criticized TFA and Rey, so they had to make up arguments and defend them by making unjustified comparisons to TPM and Anakin. In my view, these people are very sad souls who refuse to accept criticism.

I think Rey would not be called a Mary Sue by people if she was younger, let's say 12. Then again, I don't think she's a Mary Sue myself, but it doesn't mean I don't understand the arguments that people make.