I Can't Believe I'm Asking This, But is Rey a "Mary Sue"?

I know you're asking, what is more bizarre? That I didn't post on this thread for 5 months or that I'm posting a video from a guy who takes the opposite view that I have espoused on this site for 23 months.
Well, there was a magic number in that video. 83%. This fellow is probably the most rational member of the MarySuebees.. and, knowing that, it should come as no surprise the 15k mob passed him over. Now he is missing one piece that works against Rey's favor, but whether it's 83 or maybe 76 doesn't matter. Rey is not a 100% Mary Sue even by the standards of Max Landis.
Does it need to be 100% becomes the question. Because if is indeed 100% then all I need is "wrong fuses." Argument over.
Perhaps 80 percent? How about 75? Whats stopping us from 20!? Jaylah, Rey's Star Trek knockoff, would certainly qualify as a Mary Sue under that.
Maybe it's time to understand that the definition has no basis on the nature of the evidence.. but is completely dependant on the seriousness of the charge.
I have waited now 23 months for someone to present solid evidence that it actually takes YEARS to learn the Jedi Mind Trick. No such evidence has been presented. Ever. What has been presented? The accusation, with the implied demand the we, not them, present evidence to the negative.
Ultimately it comes down to the emotional reactions of three scenes:
"I disengaged the compressor"
"Don't hold my hand"
"You will remove these restraints"
Now, with that made clear, I preferred Jaylah to Rey. Rey does suffer from two issues in this movie. The first is her formal 'coruscanti' accent and lingo. There's a reason we like British vilians; they come off as haughty SoBs. I seems completely out of place on Rey, yet was intentionally done by JJ. We still don't have an answer why. Jaylah, by contrast uses an east euro accent, which makes sense to her known background and lack of familiarity with the Federation tongue. I stand by the assertion that R1 reshoots pulled back a bit on Erso's accent, but at least we know why with Jyn. Bizarrely no one inquires as to the origin of Rey's accent. Finn instead chooses to ask her about a potential romantic rival. There is also serious lack of slang in her dialogue.
The second of course is just no real time given to work out the character right. Rey is a direct port of Ree from Winter's Bone, and responses that would make sense coming from a culturally Southern woman in the Ozarks is just plain jarring without proper context, which TFA does not provide. Jaylah is also a direct port of Ree, but was developed in the script over the course of almost a year. Rey got two months.

 

If TLJ reveals she can already swim, despite where she's from, that's one step closer to Mary Sue-dom.

 

Lol.

Look into your heart. You know it to be true.

 

But in all seriousness...No, I don't think she's a Mary Sue. She's far from perfect, and there are good explanations for each of her skills. The one thing that might qualify her for the Mary Sue "status" would be her victory over Kylo, but only for those who didn't pay attention to him for whatever reason. He was so mad and hell bent on killing her that he was striking the rocks beneath her feet and the air above her head. He was just chasing her around hoping she'll get tired eventually, which was a mistake because he got tired first. A gaping wound in your torso will do that. Anyway, I don't give Rey any credit for winning that battle, that was just Kylo losing a fight against himself, mainly because he chose so. Which, the way I see it, was the whole point of that entire sequence. And it's funny to me how many claim that Rey is a "feminist icon" because she defeated the big bad villain (to be read as "man"). No, he allowed himself to be defeated. Still, because so many complained about her being overpowered, chances are she'll get a severe beating in TLJ just to "equal the score".

 

The term "Mary Sue" honestly has become such a buzz term as of late. Namely, with people misinterpreting it and just as bad, people using it as a means to shift the goalpost of discussion and promote a veil of intellectual dishonesty, fallacious etc. In other words, it is really hard to have a discussion about this subject.

As for Rey being a Mary Sue, I don't really see it. But that doesn't mean that I like her. While I liked Daisy Ridley's performance and do think she was better than Mark Hamill during ANH, I found the character really, really dull. Her motivations I found where paper thin in that she wants to find her folks/ discovery her identity and yet why does she want to stay on Jakku?

Why wouldn't she fly with Han Solo, especially given how she's supposedly been on that planet most of her life and they haven't come back? Now, that isn't me saying she has to go to Han, but really the movie in my view didn't do enough to develop her character. And very much packaged it for TLJ. Thank you, JJ, for that. I can go into details as to why if anyone is curious.

My issue with her is that the movie never explained why she was good at stuff. The novel and subsequent material revealed that she had studied flying under a Y-wing simulator and repairing ships under Unkar Plutt's ships. Care to show that? Yeah, there is one throwaway line, but it is really distracting when you consider that the movie actually SHOWED us Rey's lifestyle in that beautiful visual montage.

So that begs the question: Why not show it there? Also, I didn't mind her being so strong in the Force until the Jedi Mind trick. Beyond just the fact that it is a high level technique, anyone who doubts me I don't know if we watched the same movies, it cheapened Rey's character. Because, rather than escape with her own skills, the Force was a Deus ex Machina in that regard. And to not be just a snarky critic, my solution would be to give Rey some kind of lock pick. Makes sense as she is a scavenger after all, and no doubt there are chests and items with locked goods. Show the audience using it as early as the montage or go a step beyond and her discovering Luke's saber by picking the lock.

And as for Rey's fight with Kylo, I get that he was injured/ mentally conflicted but really that I found was an unearned victory. It comes after a string of successes that Rey has showcased throughout this movie. And really, her using a Saber is not the same as using a staff. Unless, it is revealed she had saber training in the past or something like that, then I think that fight is BS.

Overall, let me be clear; I do not hate Rey. Far from it. I find her a lot like Anakin in that supplemental material, like Forces of Destiny and Before The Awakening show her off in a more positive light. Namely, with Ridley being handed better material. Plus, I am confident that RJ will deliver with Rey, a lot more than people are expecting. And that the arguments of her being a Mary Sue will be completely discounted once TLJ comes out.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2017 ---

It is funny that you mention Rey being conceived by the Force, but it brings to mind this theory I discovered:

I'm not partial to origin theories of Rey's backstories. Namely, me being indifferent and in my view an epic backstory doesn't make a character great. Just look at Anakin. Chosen one and whiny guy in the movies that is. But, if there is one theory I could get behind it is this one. Namely, in that it would be something radically different, yet akin to Anakin's.

And really, the concept in the video could be explained by the Force creating it. Because, I have heard that the ST should be the story of the Skywalkers and therefore it should follow that. If LF wants to shake things up, then in my view Rey shouldn't be related to anyone. That in a meta sense, based on the audience's polarized responses, and the movies at large; she is an enigma.

And that weirdness in term is going to be the key to resolving the Skywalker conflict. But what do I know. I'm just a guy on the Internet.

 

Because what was presented via dialgue and what was presented via storytelling was different. Some people bring up the argument that kid Anakin couldn't be a Mary Sue beacuse he was a slave... But apparetnly what we percieve as a slave in our real world and what we see in episode I fundamentally differs.

This is my problem with the "term". It's not some kind of taxative, well defined, comprehensive definition, more like just a buzzword. A misbegotten attempt at finger pointing in a vain effort to mitigate the infamy... If you create a definition exactly for Rey, than sacre bleu... She'll indeed match it...

At the time when this "Mary Sue" craze started (when TFA was released) I've read multiple definitions. One of them included such characters usually having sad backstories where the "Mary Sue" was either oppressed, underestimated or often abused, as such backstory greatly helps empowering the Mary Sue to have revenge, or prove her perfection.

Since Max Landis threw the term into the collective nerd consciousness. Never before I've heard this "argument" used anywhere near popular media. Pre-TFA era it was rather a nieche expression only smaller forums used. Now it's a buzzword everyone (usually incorrecly) uses for whatever agenda. So now people reevaluate their views on the saga. Just like how some suddenly find the PT bold and orginal compared to TFA, some also realised that the saga was filled with Mary Sues and unoriginality (to a certain degree) from the very first entity...

Since the internet changed film criticism forever. You know, in 1999 Youtube or Twitter wasn't really that popular as today.
Also, since the PT received many other criticism to many other aspect. I assume, as the PT was already dissected and destroyed till it's very core, compared to some other arguments an 8 years old kid winning a space battle didn't seem that great of a flaw... But now, in different context different criticism have seen the sunlight.

Btw imo the only thing that matters is the validity of the argument, not the timing of the usage of such argument.

I rather think the sad souls are the ones that can't accept a female character that isn't a damsel in distress (or from an 80s movie or one of it's sequels/reboots), or a women being in charge of a successful company...

 

Bingo.
It was almost EXCLUSIVELY reserved for the area in which it originated, fan fictions.

It being brought to the forefront was really just a dirty tactic at trying to dismiss the character who is no different than other lead protagonists in the franchise.

 

I’m not sure why people read the term as inherently negative. ‘Mary Sue’ is just one of many hero archetypes. How the template is executed is what determines whether the character is good or bad. I think Rey is a good character. I think Ridley portrays her wonderfully. I also see the hallmarks of a classic Sue there though. But, so what?

 

Because it originated as a name for a character in a fan fiction story and it was never intended as a good thing. It was/is a criticism on deeming a character as lesser by being pure wish-fulfillment rather than a real character.

 

There are no multiple definitions, since the term originates with an actual character called Mary Sue from a Star Trek fanfiction. Every time you want to "check boxes" regarding if a character is a Mary Sue or not, you compare with the traits of that specific character.

Nice try, but that's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that the only people who criticize TPM for being a rehash of ANH, or criticize Anakin for being a Mary Sue, are people who defend TFA as not being a rehash of ANH, and defend Rey as not being a Mary Sue. My point was that these arguments did not occur out of mere chance, they are simply a direct effect of TFA. It has nothing to do with TPM and Anakin - this is just about people desperately defending TFA and Rey.

YouTube and Twitter didn't exist in 1999, but if TPM really was a rehash of ANH, people would have complained about that in some way back in 1999 - but they didn't. And the Mary Sue thing has been around since the 1970s, so if Anakin really gave off the Mary Sue vibes to people back in 1999, they would have complained about it - but they didn't.

Don't you get it? The reason why the "Mary Sue" trope has suddenly gained worldwide recognition is because Rey happens to be a Star Wars character. Star Wars is the biggest movie franchise of all time, almost anything related to Star Wars is going to gain worldwide recognition.

But then again, I don't belong to the people who think Rey is a Mary Sue, so I don't understand why we're talking about it.

Again - Nice try, but I think there are plenty of good female characters in modern movies who are not damsels in distress: Furiosa Wonder Woman, Katnis Everdeen, etc.

 

Firstly, that is how the term originated but it isn't the definition of the term. And that is not how people decide if a character is a Mary Sue.

There ARE multiple definitions and uses for this term.

No, those are people who see it for what it is. Even George himself has said it's like poetry, it rhymes. They all flow together and share incredibly similar stories and paths.

I can make a similarly absurdist claim that the only people who claim that TPM isn't a rehash of ANH while TFA is a rehash are doing so to hold the standard bearer of a male driven Star Wars franchise and diminish any work or effort put into the new movies with a female lead.

 

You guys are too obsessed with gender. The only ones talking about "male" and "female" are you, not me.

I think that says it all. End of discussion.

 

That’s like claiming other tropes like ‘stuffed in the fridge’ or ‘saving the cat’ can only refer to those specific things. They’re abstract ideas that represent several types of similar (but not identical) scenarios.

 

1st - do I get demerits in that I had never even heard of the "Mary Sue" term before coming across this thread?

Can't agree with any on that list though I have no clue what "Slenderman" is from. Bella Swan is not a Mary Sue, she was just plain f@#$in annoying!!

 

Slenderman is the millenial boogeyman. Or Candyman. Or Bloody Mary. Or Biggie Smalls.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2017 ---

Isn't it "nuked the fridge"

 

If you enjoy confusing people, sure

 

It's kind of a hobby