Is there a plan after all?

I never saw Looper so I cannot address this point.

Well, that is what he told us over and over and over and over and over again was the case. So yeah, I will believe the statements Rian Johnson made on the record time and time and time again over some internet rando with absolutely no contradictory evidence beyond his own hopes that the people in charge would not be foolhardy enough to do such a thing.

So in other words you have zero evidence whatsoever.

I can't help but notice that not a single person who disagrees with me has presented an iota of evidence to contradict my thesis. I have about a dozen on-the-record quotes from Rian Johnson himself to support what I am saying. People who disagree with me have.... nothing.

You might have a point here if I was basing my belief on a single, off-the-cuff statement, like the one Simon Pegg made about JJ's plan for Rey's parents being discarded.... or maybe if RJ said something vague that could be interpreted a bunch of ways.... but that's not the case. There is not even the slightest implication that he is not speaking literally in the following statements:

"The perception of these films is that they’re all planned out on a secret sheet of paper in advance, but that’s just not the case" …
"I wasn’t given an outline" …
"There wasn’t any kind of secret whiteboard with the whole story laid out" …
"I had figured there would be a big map on the wall with the whole story laid out, and it was not that at all."

 

It seems clear to me that there is a story arc but a crap ton of freedom allowed within that framework.

I also think that the story arc only involves the two main characters who are the two that dictate the path. You could off Han in VII, Luke in VIII or IX - no biggie. Off Snoke whenever as well since the arc was not about his journey. Poe, Finn, BB8, Chewie, C3PO, Hux, R2D2, Rose, and Maz - all secondary and Rian and JJ could use them as they see fit . . . to a certain degree.

I do suspect Han, Luke, and Leia were to be treated with a bit more structure than other characters as they are binded into Kylo's arc to some degree as his parents (possibly Rey's as well in ways which we are currently unaware). Han goes in the first, then Luke, and Leia was last . . . its just real life got in the way of this plan.

I doubt Rian strayed too far from what was pre-planned. I also think his "style" is such that the gripes of the directions he took, will later found to be deliberate misdirections on his part, explained to LucasFilm, and subsequently allowed in.

 

[/QUOTE]

Like a lot of people have been saying, an outline can mean many things it can be detailed or it can be a vague sketch... you take it to mean there were no limits to what RJ could do, there was NO PLAN, when clearly he couldn't do WHATEVER he wanted, even he knew that, it COULD be as simple as, "2nd movie: Rey is trained by Luke." I mean RJ had lots of leeway, clearly, but it wasn't like he could kill everyone off or have Rey become a Sith or Luke kills Ben. RJ wanted to make a Star Wars movie, and he did, he probably already had a good idea of what he could and could not do. You're taking an "outline" to mean what he said he didn't get (what he was expecting), that can mean that the "plan/outline" was way more minimal than he expected. He's specifically saying "the whole story wasn't laid out". We don't disagree. But you can't jump from that to say "there was NO PLAN."

 

Doesnt matter that it was "Looper" I chose to use. He was not given the freedom to do whatever he wanted. He had a lot of creative freedom I am sure, but he also worked closely with others. Also there was an interview of KK before TFA released where she talked about the trilogy being outlined/planned.

Not to mention if RJ was going to run along and do his own thing he wouldnt move to San Francisco to work with LFL and the story group on the script. I mean that is exactly what making a story that follows a plan/outline is. I am sure there were stuff they suggested and he said he doesnt like it. I am sure there was stuff he suggested and they said they dont like it. It was a collaborative effort. Really feel that this collaborative effort is what made them say lets do more with RJ with another trilogy. There is also evidence in the Art of TLJ book that shows RJ following along with GL having Luke go off in exile and that is from 2013.

 

Adam Driver says there was a plan for his characters since the beginning. Daisy knew the answer about her parents from the beginning. There's some kind of rough outline for this trilogy. RJ pitched a story that fit with what Lucasfilm wanted. He made the film he wanted to make and he made a film that checked the boxes for Lucasfilm.

 

Cinematography and editing, among some other categories like Hair/Makeup, are going to be given out during commercial breaks. It's pretty disappointing to see the elements that make film into the unique art form that it is.

I can't help but notice that these are all statements about what the series (in Rian's eyes) isn't.

I agree that some seem troubling, but I really don't think we can say that this means there is "no plan". Three of these quotes deal with him refuting the idea that the "whole story laid out", which almost no one on this thread thinks is the case.

Him not being given an outline? Sure, that seems like it could be bad. But it's also, once again, very specific language. Outline or not, are you honestly telling me that you believe LFL is just making this entirely up as they go along with absolutely no plan in mind, and that Rian Johnson had completely free reign on canon going forward, no holds barred?

Seriously, is that what you sincerely believe?

 

Don't take this the wrong way - I actually think the truth is somewhere in the middle of what the two of you are saying - but there is some evidence. From Adam Driver's recent statements about knowing what Kylo's arc would be across the entire trilogy, to things that were written in the Art Of books - there are resasons to believe that there was at least some sort of direction for the trilogy - however vague. And he's right about some of it being common sense - RJ would have had to pitch his story idea and have that approved, They would also have had approval over the final script. He may not have been given a story outline, or even key plot points to hit - but that doesn't mean his story didn't have to remain consistent with the overall vision for the trilogy.

 

Yes, I am taking Rian Johnson at his word that there was no outline, there was no plan, and there was nothing he was obligated to include in E8. But here's the thing that people are not realizing: KK obviously likes Rian Johnson and she obviously trusts Rian Johnson. So giving him free reign, no holds barred, without an outline or a plan was done with the knowledge that he wasn't acting in bad faith.

When I walked out of E8 it was already painfully obvious to me that there was no plan for the sequel trilogy considering how disjointed E7 and E8 were. Johnson's own statements prove it. That is why I am so happy Abrams is doing E9. When all is said and done, the bookends of the trilogy will be consistent and the middle chapter will be all but forgotten.

I like what you wrote and you are highlighting a key difference. There is a difference between giving him an outline and saying he has to do A, B and C compared to saying "You can do whatever you want but you'll have to get our final approval." His own statements make it clear there was no plan and they didn't give him any sort of outline beforehand. Having said that, yes I agree that he was submitting his creative decisions in advance and, by virtue of the fact that she was his boss, KK could have overridden anything he did. Furthermore, just because he had creative freedom doesn't mean he completely ignored anything and everything someone else suggested.

Being that he had a boss, RJ did not have the same level of freedom as, say, George Lucas doing the prequels. But he made it quite clear time and again that there was no outline, no plan, no whiteboard and there was nothing he was obligated beforehand to do.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2019 ---

Yes this is what I mean when I said KK trusted RJ. She knew he wasn't going to act in bad faith to completely mess over the entirely ST (even though that's arguably what happened anyway, but I give him the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't deliberate).

No that's not what he is specifically saying. You are inaccurately paraphrasing what he actually said. What he specifically and literally said is: "I wasn't given an outline... there wasn't any kind of secret whiteboard with the whole story laid out... the perception of these films is that they are all planned out, but that's just not the case..." etc

 

If Episode XI wraps up the trilogy well, and makes everything look like there was a plan, does it matter whether or not there was one?

 

While we have to take RJ at his word, we also have to take Adam Driver at his word. He pretty much stated the character of Kylo had a defined ending that the movies have been leading up to that. This argument comes down what you consider a plan to be. If you think a plan needs to be super detailed and written out then they did not have a plan. If you think a plan can be this is where we are starting and this is where we want to end up but how we get there can be fluid then Lucasfilm did have a plan. Adam’s quote die show that they are not completely winging it. RJ’s quote shows that they did not create a very detailed outline for the overall story. It seems to me that this argument has turned into not did they have a plan but what do you consider a plan.

 

Well, I find it positively fascinating that you believe that, but far be it for me to be any sort of thought police.

I mean, like I said in my last post, Johnson's statements you provided don't necessarily prove that, unless someone reads into them looking to support an agenda. Let's have the same standard of evidence for both sides, please and thanks.

Well, I don't know about the middle chapter being forgotton (if it's ignored, that would still be a bad move, in my opinion) but I think we can both agree it'll be great to have Abrams back to round off what he started.

 

It's not what he's saying... your quote of him points that there wasn't some giant whiteboard with every point and twist that needed to be hit... he was surprised by the freedom he had. But there was a plan. You're conflating "it's not all planned out/no giant whiteboard story outline" with THERE WAS NO PLAN. And that's just ridiculous.

 

Do you like to waste a ton of money? That is what you are saying. Lets wait until RJ is done with his story and not provide any guidance. When he is done we will read it and decide if it meets the needs of the overall story. If not we start over. Remember they want these films 2 years apart. We have visual evidence of part of the TLJ story in the from 2013 in the Art of TLJ book. Why did RJ move to San Francisco when coming up with the story and script? Why did he work with the story group?

I walked out and thought it was a perfect continuation. Everyone's story was a natural continuation of what occurred in TFA. It flabbergasts me that people think differently unless they arent willing to take the answers they gave to you, because they werent the answers they wanted. Now they want JJ to retcon all of it.

 

Exactly.

Like, consider the MCU. Directors are now being given a certain degree of freedom that they weren't necessarily allotted earlier in the series, and it's paying off. We're getting more interesting stuff, like Thor:Ragnarok as opposed to cookie-cutter comic movies.

Does each director have "whiteboards" with the entire MCU plot running through 2022 on them?
Certainly not, and there are far more directors collaborating there. In fact, due to that, we do see evidence of collaboration, though it's still not some all encompassing shot-for-shot storyboard.

I'm sorry, but to think Star Wars is treated significantly different just because a director ruled out some of the most extreme possible examples just doesn't seem plausible to me.

 

Not to me. In fact, I believe that is going to happen given that the guy who made E7 is the same guy making E9. I anticipate those 2 movies will tie into each other quite well.

 

This.

I personally don't care if a story has no plan whatsoever if it looks as it was planned. In the end it is the final product what counts not the process. Stories don't always follow a plan. In the process of writing, when you see the characters up close, plans do change. You realise things about them you did not anticipate in the process, motivations, unexpected connections... I think that to make a character follow a plan to the letter in the course of three very distinct adventures is misguided. It is not certain that Abrams would have followed the original outline he had for Rey and Kylo in episode 9 if he had written episode 8 too... Living with these characters during three different adventures and knowing them better might have made JJ change their trajectory considerably. I suspect that after RJ's episode 8 this will be the case too.

 

JJ was constantly changing the script for TFA even during filming

 

Maybe Disney set this up so they could go back and make another Trilogy before TFA that does things like define Snoke, Rey’s Parents, Luke’s dismay, The Jedi Academy, KOR, Kylo’s Fall, how the FO raised. Han and Leia separation. Maybe long time before we get those answers.