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Is there a plan after all?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    If anything, they should have had RJ write the whole thing.
    And it's pretty clear they agree by giving him a trilogy.
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Let me ask you a question, if JJ Abrams writes and directs Episode 8 after he wrote Episode 7, do you honestly think he kills Snoke? None of us will never know, but I think Snoke survives Episode 9 and is involved in the final confrontation with Rey/Kylo and possibly Luke. I find it highly unlikely that JJ would create a character like Snoke, and then kill him off the next movie where it sort of makes him just a plot point in Episode. Where Rian Johnson had the motive to kill off Snoke as he may have not liked that character to begin (since it wasn't his creation) and wanted to focus on Kylo Ren.

    The point is if you believe that JJ would not have killed Snoke in Episode 8 (if he were writing and directing) then Rian Johnson was NOT following the logical path in the narrative setup.
     
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  3. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    1000% believe Snoke was planned to be out in EP8 by the whole creative group. No way no how is this not part of the whole arc that the story group would put together. No way no how does a director just run off and do that. Sounds like you believe that EP9 was going to be ROTJ 2.0.
     
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  4. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    There is no way that the creative group or JJ had a big picture plan of Snoke getting killed in Episode 8 (again, none of us can prove it), as I firmly believe Rian Johnson didn't like the character and killed him (as he even mentions that it freed him of focusing more on Kylo in the 2nd half of the movie).

    As for ROTJ 2.0, I firmly believe that JJ was going to follow the OT model in a big picture story sense. TFA is a total retread of ANH, but the character arcs are different, and I think that's how JJ approached it (The Macro story would be roughly the same as the OT, but the micro story would be different). I could have easily seen Episode 9 have a showdown of Kylo/Snoke and Rey/Leia/Luke and them trying to redeem Kylo must like ROTJ. In fairness to Disney, Carrie Fisher dying in real life probably changed that plan.
     
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  5. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    We are talking about one of the largest corporations in the world with a multi billion dollar franchise. You think they just let RJ run rampant and change such a key portion of an arc you believe that was setup for the climax of the trilogy. Bob Iger said he personally approved TLJ script right when TFA premiered.
     
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  6. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    Absolutely this. My money is on Snoke having being conceived right from the start as a mentor character to transition Kylo Ren, through the old apprentice-killing-the-master trope, from a Vader-esque character into a Emperor-esque character. Snoke served his storytelling purpose perfectly.
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    We have never gotten to see an apprentice usurp his master and then reign. We've HEARD about it. Vader did it but died almost instantly after.
    Now we get something new. We get the Reign of Ren. This could be "what if Vader killed Palpatine in ROTS and just took over".
     
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  8. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    I agree. I've been thinking this since even before TLJ. In TFA we see a person who willingly, actively and deliberately chooses the path of the Dark Side by (seemingly) his own choice.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    No excuses left on this one. Snoke my have started the ball but Ben's own choices have brought him to where he is.
     
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  10. KalKenobi83

    KalKenobi83 Rebelscum

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    I hope Kylo Ren Dies he needs to pay
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 25, 2019 ---
    Writer-director Rian Johnson says he only knew one truth: It was time for Snoke to end. That felt like the only way to make Kylo Ren stronger and more formidable as the trilogy closes.

    “When I was working on the character of Kylo, I came to a place where I thought the most interesting thing would be to knock the shaky foundation out from under him at the beginning of this movie,” Johnson said. “By the end of this film, he’s gone from being a wannabe Vader to someone who is standing on his own feet as a complex villain taking the reins.”

    Johnson also thought it would be “a really good setup going into the next movie.”


    https://ew.com/movies/2017/12/17/star-wars-last-jedi-spoilers-snoke-killed-theories/2/
     
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  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    This article makes a lot of sense. I would wager that those who liked TLJ have the same opinion that is expressed in the article.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    One would think, that even if you DIDN'T like TLJ, one should still be able to understand and see the value in this story telling choice. Which isn't the same as liking it.
    But unfortunately that doesn't always seem to be the case.
     
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  13. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yes.

    What is it about them being such a large corporation that makes you think they are immune from making mistakes? They've clearly made plenty of mistakes with Star Wars over the past few years. Fortunately, JJ is doing E9 so we can safely assume it will be far more in line with E7 than E8. Which is as it should be.
     
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  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I always thought the whole map idea kind of silly. I've done some exploration to find some old native American trading posts close to where I live, settlements about 150 years old. There's no trace because on a living planet, nature tends to hide everything. Rivers change path, things flood, snow, rain and erosion takes it's toll, not to mention those who came after and stripped whatever remnants existed. I know where it was physically, at least approximately, there's just nothing to see. It's simply overrun by nature. Add that most native tools and artifacts were made of natural substances, a lot simply breaks down.

    Space is more pristine. Our real world dynamics, in the last 75 years studying our solar system there's barely a change to our earliest pictures. The change has come with technology, not the planets, moons, sun ect themselves (yes, stars move, but that's pretty predictable, especially in such a short time span of 30 years, when talking about astronomical distances). So in a civilization as advanced as that from the SW universe, I don't understand how they need a physical map, it would already all be mapped. The specifics of each planet and system might be unknown, but not their location. I skipped over that oddity in TFA, because after all, this is SW and they may find a way to explain it later on. However I find it odd people trying to defend this using any kind of logic lol. Using maps from different eras, like the OT, PT and ST doesn't even work because we're still talking only 60 years. That's a not even a drop in a ocean, let alone a bucket when talking about space.

    Now if Ach-to was near some volatile part of space where changes happened more often, sure. But then that would make it easier to narrow where Luke was at, and that's not what the story depicted in either ST films.

    The most common argument is not to go into a SW movie thinking too scientifically. That's fair, but also superficial. Maybe these details from this fantasy don't matter to you, and that's fine, I could easily accept that this element of the story doesn't matter to you, but that doesn't mean that a movie with a budget of tens of millions can't come up with a rationale that satisfies these details for all viewers. It would only add to your experience, while satisfying that of others. I would say that setting your fantasy in space has that price, that you now need to look at those scientific details to some extent. They don't need to be long, but they do need to be logical.

    I've tried to think up different scenarios... Ach-to by a new born star doesn't work, because it's supposed to be old. Ach-to by a sun that's undergone a dramatic change within those 60 or hundred years could work, but would likely also vastly alter Ach-to itself and render it uninhabitable (planets are delicate). Maybe Ach-to suffered some cataclysmic event, meteor strike, two planets collision ect... but again, 60 years is too short a time to bring the planet back to habitability. Of course maybe Ach-to cataclysmic event happened in the Jedi's infancy, but again, that would have wiped out any tree and likely any trace of past civilizations.

    The only explanation I could come to is that the planet was documented by the Jedi Order in the PT times or before. It was abandoned for some reason (could be the topic of a novel later on... I don't have an issue here) and kept secret by the Jedi Order since. Luke found hints of its existence and managed to figure out where it was. This is basically what I assumed after TFA, yet still the map was problematic, if it wasn't derived off of Luke's, or other historians work who were searching for the lost world of Ach-to. I think it requires further explanation, and I expect it will get some attention at some point, a book, comic book series ect... be part of a animated series... but I don't believe it's vital to the story told in the ST. This element would not have made impossible for me to suspend my disbelief, but it is something I'd be curious about that I'd love to read more about. Did Luke go there alone, research alone, or did others assist him? He must have gone places, asked questions to others knowledgeable of Ach-to to help him find it. It could be the map was derived from those conversations as well as those with his friends. Maybe one who knew him best, at least on this subject, is someone we haven't met yet.

    So yeah, it's a problem, but is made worse by TLJ imo. I sympathize with RJ on this one though, as he was handed this by JJ, quite possibly without a fully thought out sequence of events applied to it, or the mechanics ect... I think RJ was handed this with a blank slate and he did the best he can without spending inordinate amounts of time thinking this single element out at the cost of the rest of the story. I sympathize, and can even overlook it to some extent, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a weak point in TLJ. It only means a mechanic, Luke's disappearance, possibly wasn't fully thought out, but since we're intended to look at this from Rey's perspective, it doesn't matter that much in that it could be explained after the fact by some other writers as an addendum.
     
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  15. Darth Marcadimus

    Darth Marcadimus Rebelscum

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    I have to assume there was some plan, but as a 35-year fan, it sure seems like they did not. I never read comics at all, and am only a semi-fan of superheroes, but I saw about 75% of the MCU lead up and was more often than not surprised by how many I actually liked since they avoided often the boring trope of punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, SUPER PUNCH WIN! Then came Infinity War and you watched scenes and threads from so many films come together and explode in the first action film in a long time that I didn't often during the films think "this would have been cooler" or "they should have done this." The reason was they had a very definite plan that was released in pieces all culminating in a crafted climax.

    The new episodes don't come off this way to me at all. TFA was at first very good, with Rey struggling as indentured servitude (in a sense to me) and a rebeling trooper, then an exciting escape in a wonderful Falcom scene. From there on it was jokey (hyperspace into a planet's atmosphere, with no tension), recycled (same ships, similar designs in soldiers), reused lines of dialog, and literally no idea how the political structure is in the galaxy or why the Resistance isn't part of a side. In a word, it felt like a summary of Star Wars so far, and a promise to show they could make effects look good.

    We knew nothing, but we at least had some questions to discuss. Who is Rey and how does she factor into the saga? Who is Snoke, why did Ben abandon his family for an obvious tyrant, why does he look like that, and how did the First Order come to be so powerful and what is their connection with the Empire? Why was Luke hiding, what was he looking for, didn't he foresee the Snoke threat? How did Maze get that lightsaber, why did it call out to Rey and why does Kylo want it (how does he even know it exists, and where did he get Vader's mask?

    Rian jumped over all of this. We didn't get answers to anything, or a few, or just moving each plot point along and growing tentacles to come together in the final film. He also killed off any interesting story. The Resistance has 1 ship, they have like 15 soldiers, no one cared to answer their distress call (odd they had NO one to come in and grab them from the tracked ships, or just falcon back and form to some remote place, but then again, now apparently fuel is an issue one of many lore crushing lameness from Rian). Rey didn't become attached to Luke and she has no reason to destroy or save Kylo. The Resistance should be gone in 2-3 years and the FO rule the galaxy, game over. Maybe that is where the next trilogy comes in, 50 years later a new rebellion in an essential reboot after the JJ soft reboot. I mean really, do you feel a need to see Ep 9, or just want to because it ends the saga's central story?

    But what is more than anything killing star wars is the political messaging. Don't get me wrong, I am quite liberal and am all for minorities and despise Trump. BUT, you can't just mirror that in the films and figure that is good enough. Lucas mirrored THEMES of humanity, where RJ explicitly followed reality. That is boring and a complete cop-out. Trump was broken into two pieces, the oppressive and vindictive Snoke, and the bombastic and mocked twitter rage Hux. The "Resistance" which is basically what the non-Alt-Right has been called is a direct homage and Holdo is the defacto Me Too/Women's March representative. Again, I support these folks in the real world, but they should not be an inspiration for the plot of Star Wars, especially given previous lore. The originals dealt with politics but in overall ways. The droids were discriminated against like minorities (we don't serve their kind here), and both liberals and conservatives could enjoy the big theme of the oppressive Empire vs the little guy. Liberals saw it as the worker vs the big bad corporation and conservatives saw it as the hard-working entrepreneur vs the oppressive regulating government. And both were thrilled to see the little guy (themselves) win. That is why Rey is not a compelling character. She is super powerful and skilled with no training or info, and in the films, it seems like a week or two in total time has passed. No one identifies with the trust funded star football player with a governor for a father, we identify with the insecure growing hero we envision ourselves as.

    This is why it doesn't seem like there was much of a plan to start more than maybe:

    "Get the good guys back to being a downtrodden rebellion"
    "Make the bad guys a threat to the galaxy again"
    "Capitalize on the female action hero theme working in entertainment (Katniss, Mad Max Fury Road, Divergent)"
    "Kill off the heroes of OT one by one so we can move on to new stories"
    "And either Kylo comes back to the light and dies to save the Rebellion and take down the FO."

    Just my two cents.
     
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  16. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Makes mistakes yes. Let 1 creative person take a huge franchise and just go forward and change the plan without input and approval from the people that own and control the franchise. We are not debating can mistakes be made. That is not the argument. The argument is they let RJ go forward and throw away what was setup by JJ and Lucasfilm. That is im sorry an idiotic belief. No way no how did Lucasfilm get the final film and look at each other and say "Wow RJ killed Snoke and Luke, that was pretty bold of him.". Think about what people are claiming.

    So again. I dont believe that a story and script that was approved before TFA even released was something that wasnt inline with what JJ and the story group put together back in 2013 and 2014. Were some adjustments made? Sure, like always. Was story thrown away? No way.
     
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  17. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Half of your issues should of been answered in Episode 7 which JJ clearly didn't felt like he was obligated too since he was one and done with SW orginally. That's a lot of information to be answered in 2nd movie at the same time trying to move the story forward. As i said before, JJ has blood on his hands just as much as RJ.
     
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  18. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    I think my thoughts and response on that can be summed up with "traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops".
     
    #98 Too Bob Bit, Jan 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Correct.
    TFA was a warm cozy place for us to visit to re-familiarize the general audience with "Star Wars as you remembered it"
    Perhaps that's exactly what it needed to be. Perhaps there was room for a bit more meat with it.
    TLJ tried to contextualize everything in TFA as best it could.
     
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  20. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel General

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    If JJ wants Snoke for 9 then “Snoke Lives”.

    If the few answers and deaths we got in TLJ are true then there is not much reason to make EP 9. Kylo rules and the resistance is barely a football team and there is a Rey f hope rekindled in the galaxy. The end.

    JJ May very well serve up answers to his mystery boxes in 9 and if he wants Luke alive then “Luke Lives” too. He may also tie into Vader and WBW. I would =). Even if just a cameo, I’d love to see Ezra or Ashoka on the big screen. Would just be fun and open up some post ST animation and books to nclude them.
     
    #100 Xeven, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
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