Is there a plan after all?

I don't know what to believe when it comes to Disney and their planned outline for the Sequel Trilogy.... what I do know is what I saw after TLJ premier.


I have never seen Mark Hamill more furious, like serial killer mad.


That clip was all I needed to see.

 

He said is the best Star Wars film since Empire. I'm not sure why some people make this so complicated. The documentary covers this topic pretty well, but here were are years latter and people are still clinging to some YouTube video that confirmed their bias.

Anyway...

Here's a Slashfilm article from 2014:

Going further:

Somehow all of this stuff has gotten memory-holed.

Now the obvious question is "why are people like Rian Johnson saying they were free to make their film?" Because it's true. If there's a loose 3 film narrative about Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo it stands to reason that as long as RJ doesn't change any of the big arcs he's fine. He was able to pitch his version of the 2nd chapter and then Disney signs off on it.

 

What clip did you watch were he was "serial killer mad"? At MOST he was conflicted with it.

 

This is the part you're not getting. There was no plan in the first place so there was no plan for Johnson to change.

Why are you calling it "an idiotic belief" when it is what both KK and RJ have claimed time and time again? Both Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy are officially on record as stating over and over that RJ had complete creative control to do anything he wanted to do. What, are they just both pathological liars? These are all official, on-the-record Rian Johnson quotes, not fanboy speculation and trying to interpret someone's body language:

"I had as much creative control on TLJ as I've ever had on any of my own movies." - Rian Johnson

When asked if he was required to include any specific plot-points or end-game, Johnson once again dismissed it: "Nothing like that."

""The perception of these films is that they’re all planned out on a secret sheet of paper in advance, but that’s just not the case. I wasn’t given an outline of where it goes or even a list of things to hit. It really was just, ‘Okay, what’s next?’" - Rian Johnson

"So when I came into it, there wasn’t any kind of secret whiteboard with the whole story laid out. I just read JJ and Michael and Larry’s script for 7, and it was just… what happens next?" - Rian Johnson

Question: "They hadn’t sketched out the next two movies at all?" Response: "No, no, this was more like a baton handoff." - Rian Johnson

"I had figured there would be a big map on the wall with the whole story laid out, and it was not that at all. I was basically given the script for “Episode VII;” I got to watch dailies of what J. J. was doing. And it was like, where do we go from here? That was awesome." - Rian Johnson

"Hi Greg, this is Rian. I've actually had as much creative ownership as on any film I've done. Don't know if you'll like it, but it's me." - Rian Johnson (in a since-deleted tweet)

There is ZERO ambiguity in the above statements, even though you think it is "idiotic" to believe them.

I have to say I find it pretty hilarious that RJ's biggest supporters on this board apparently think he is also a pathological liar..... and while I am no fan of E8, I have never once insulted the man personally and I believe every word of what he says above.​

 

I think the confusion with the RJ quotes is simple... he wrote the middle chapter. The middle chapter is always the "challenge the characters" portion of the story. RJ didn't have to introduce the characters or finish the story. There's an end in mind for Kylo Ren. Adam Driver isn't a liar, but that end wasn't going to come in the middle chapter.

By design there's no reason for there to be an elaborate outline for the middle chapter. Luke being dead or alive for IX doesn't really matter because he's not a main character in this trilogy. He'd either exist as a wise old teacher or a wise force ghost. RJ wrote his story, pitched it to Lucasfilm, and it was approved.

This fits with what Kiri Hart said:

 

@KeithF1138 @Wolfpack , you're both welcome to attack the arguments being presented by either, but let's keep it civil in the process.

Furthermore, if anyone sees a post that breaks our Rules & Regulations, please report it and do not try to confront the individual about it in your following posts.

 

Your statement here directly contradicts what Rian Johnson himself said many, many times. You are free to believe what you want but I'll take the word of the writer/director of the film over someone from the story group who isn't even mentioned in the credits. Johnson himself stated time and time again there was no master plan for the trilogy and he was free to go wherever he wanted to in E8.

It isn't like he blurted it out only once and maybe his words are being take out of context. He made these statements so often, in so many outlets, and so unambiguously that there is zero room for confusion, spin or misinterpretation - unless someone thinks he is simply lying, but I do not believe that is the case. Here are some more easily found examples...

"I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see .. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.” - Rian Johnson

"“J. J. wrote ‘Episode VII,’ he also wrote drafts for ‘VIII’ & ‘IX.’ Then Rian arrived and re-wrote [‘The Last Jedi’] entirely … I do believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of the ‘Episode VIII’ script”." - Daisy Ridley

"I know what JJ kind of intended or at least was being chucked around. I think that’s kind of been undone slightly by the last (movie)." - Simon Pegg

 

In my opinion that's the problem. TLJ seems more a final chapter than a middle chapter.

What statements. Daisy's one is crucial. Seems pretty clear it was some kind of plan and Rian had totally freedom to make his own story (It's what I always thought reading other statements from JJ and Mark). I think some kind of inconsistency is patent (Jesus, the eternal debate...). TLJ is his react from previous film. If it's good or not, or if it's the appropiate or the fitting one or not, is up to the viewers. So, with respect, all points are valid.

 

None of the main storylines are resolved. The First Other is still in top. The main characters are on the run. Not sure how that would work as a final chapter.

Daisy wouldn't know the entire plan and she says she's known her character's parents since the beginning which is in line with Driver's quote.

I doubt there's an elaborate plan for the middle chapter which is wise for the reasons I've mentioned.

 

Plan is knowing what will ultimately happen. Not exactly how we get there.

 

If one knows anything about writing, it is pretty clear that TLJ is a classical middle chapter (i.e. 2nd act of the story).

The bad guys grows in power/concolidates while the good guys get their hindquarters kicked; lessons are learned; tensions & despair rises as hope dwindle; friends die or get hurt; and any victory the protagonist(s) achieve comes at a heavy cost. The middle chapter – like TLJ – sets up the final chapter where heroes and hope will rise to the occasion and take on the antagonist(s) against all the odds, and the middle chapter does this by placing the protagonist(s) at their lowest point in the story at the end of act 2. Everyone is hurt and broken, everyone has lost friends/family, everyone knows failure, and there is no way to go from here but upwards.

This is story structure 101, really. In fact, TLJ is a study in 2nd acts!

 

The head of the Lucasfilm Story Group and believed to be Kennedy's right hand Kiri Hart (Wall Street Journal profile) may be gone. Her profile on the Lucasfilm website has disappeared both from here and here (her name still appears in the source code of the page). Story Group VP James Waugh's profile has also been altered from "James Waugh is the Vice President, Franchise Content & Strategy for the Lucasfilm Story Group" to now "James Waugh is the Vice President, Franchise Content & Strategy at Lucasfilm". Pablo Hidalgo never had a leadership bio page on their website AFAIK before anyone brings up why he and Chee and the rest aren't on there.

 

That's a lot of speculation based on a dead link on a website. Also, what does that have to do with this thread?

 

Ummm... is this not how RoTS (the final chapter of the PT) ended? With the Empire on top, and the good guys on the run?

 

Except it is more than just simply a dead link. She was formerly on the LFL "Leadership" page but is no longer there.

If her picture was still on the "Leadership" page and the link the her bio was missing, then yeah that's nothing more than a dead link. But what we have here is an actual change/removal made to the webpage dedicated to listing LFL Leadership team.

You quoted Kiri Hart just a couple posts ago and now that some are speculating she is no longer at LFL, you're saying "what has that got to do with this thread?"

The comings and goings of the storygroup - especially the highest ranking member thereof - is very on-topic to this thread.

 

I watched him bounce around before the viewing, then look morbidly at RJ when it was over...

Seems to me Mark Hamill backtracked after getting scolded by Disney and issued a public apology.

Lucas never really had a solid plan outside of selling toys but at least we know Disney is following THAT script.

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With the way his movie deal was structured, it quickly became all about the merch first & the story second,

research Ford's interview about that if you don't believe me.

"Can't sell dead Han Solo action figures."

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Kaminsky's: The Secret History of Star Wars is every fan's friend.
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-History-Star-Wars/dp/0978465237
​

 

The thread is about the planning of the sequel trilogy and the quote is from 2014 when they were planning. Her bio on a Lucasfilm website five years later isn't relevant to this discussion. This trilogy has been basically finished from a planning standpoint once JJ's script was approved over a year ago.

There's probably a "Let's speculate about the Storygroup" thread somewhere though and Kiri's bio will make for great theories I'm sure.

There's no resolution at the end of the TLJ. RoTS is the resolution to the story of Anakin turning to the Dark Side and the birth of the Empire. The final chapter to that story. So no... TLJ doesn't feel like a final chapter.

 

Then couldn't you say ESB is like a final chapter?

 

No resolution? Luke is dead, Snoke is Dead, Phasma is dead, Akbar is Dead, Kylo is the big bad and the resistance is a club. You could wrap this movie right now. Bad guys won.

 

None of these characters are main characters in this trilogy.

I suspect the reason some feel like "everything was wrapped up" is because they're not interested in the main characters. That's fine, but from a story standpoint there's a lot of story left to be told.