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Is there a plan after all?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Well it may not seem like a final chapter to you (no one can argue with how the episodes sits with another individual) but I don't think the relative positions of the First Order and Resistance at the end of TLJ make the case that it can't feel like a final chapter. We have had a final chapter with these things.

    I mean you could if you wanted to, I wouldn't. In part because ESB asks questions that have to be answered in RoTJ, who is Leia beyond being a princess, how is it that she could use the Force, how will Luke respond to knowing his mortal enemy is also his father, will he complete his training to become a Jedi, why did Obi Wan lie. We know there's more story to tell in the ST because there's a 3rd installment but there aren't questions coming out of TLJ that need to be answered in EPIX like there were questions coming out of ESB to be answered in RoTJ; and I suspect that was by design. I think Rian intended it to be so.
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    How will Rey respond now that Kylo Ren killed yet another surrogate father figure?
    How will the Resistance survive, numbers being dwindled down enough to escape on the Falcon?
    Will Kylo Ren be redeemed?
    Will Ben Solo return?

    Will Rey restart the Jedi?
    How will Rey ultimately handle the idea of her not being of a significant lineage? (hopefully better than some posters here have)
    What will a Kylo Ren led First Order look like?

    What will a fully comitted to the cause Finn look like?
    How will Poe handle his new responsibilities as the new leader of the Resistance?
     
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  3. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    will Finn lead the ground troops? will he inspire a stormtrooper rebellion?
    will Hux overthrow Ren? or at least try to?
    will this end with an obliterating clean win? that doesn't sound like balance to me ~ will it end with balance?
    will it end with a truce? will there be an accord? will the galaxy be united under a single power or be confederated?
    will Rey stay or will she go post-final-battle.
    will Leia survive ix?

    so. many. questions. : D
     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Of course it is, because the Sequel Trilogy is still ongoing. If Hart has left LFL, it speaks volumes as to whether or not there was ever a plan and if that plan is still in place.
    I can't find one but there certainly should be one. (I'll probably start one later when I have more time) This is HUGE news if true. She has been called "the Kevin Feige of Star Wars." SHe is seen as the heir apparent to Kennedy. If this is true, it is BEYOND huge.
     
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  5. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Does TLJ raise any of these questions or do you? I mean I could ask will Finn be FS in EPIX, but TLJ doesn't introduce anything about that possibility going into EPIX. Nor does it about a Kylo redemption/Ben Return, or how Rey responds to not being a Skywalker, or if the FO will be different under Kylo, or that the capacity in which Finn fights for the Resistance matters, or if things will end with a truce. These are questions that could be answered. But ESB presented questions that had to be answered because they were specifically introduced in that film (at least that's what I would argue).

    When you (@RoyleRancor) ponder what a fully committed Finn will look like I'm not sure if I understand what this means. Don't we see Finn fully committed by the end of TLJ? Don't we know what he looks like?
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Yes? Isn't that the point we just raised by stating those questions?
    Sounds like you are being very selective about what counts as questions raised by a film.

    No we don't.
    Finn is fully committed for about 10 minutes of screen time.
    Unless that's all you want. To see him commit to the cause then attempt a suicide run and then done.
    The Resistance is small now. Finn has to actually be what his legend was at the start of TLJ.
     
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  7. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    How will Luke's legend spark hope in the future, as represented by Broom Boy & friends, now that he is dead?
    Will equality and social justice ever be achieved, on Canto Bight and throughout the Galaxy?
    How will the Resistance bounce back and rise up again to punish the First Order?
    How will Rey continue her training?
    How will Ben continue his training?
    How will Finn use the lessons learned to finally fight for something bigger than himself?
    Who will answer Leia's call for aid (well, beyond Lando).
     
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  8. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    Did ESB ask those questions? I doubt few were really thinking those things after seeing ESB in 1980. Those are questions being applied to it retrospectively, after knowing the answers.
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I don't think think I'm being selective, but I am making an attempt to illustrate the difference between questions the movie proposes vs questions you propose (independent of the movie). I didn't see anyone address it so I'll ask it again so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle, is it valid that I should wonder if Finn is now FS following TLJ?

    None of his arc was what I wanted in TLJ, but that's not the point. The question was (in this instance) is there any question about Finn that needs to be answered in EPIX that was introduced in TLJ, and there's not. It's true for most of the characters (and most likely by design), Rian wasn't interested in doing a standard SW middle chapter, which is what I thought you all liked about it and him.

    But now when we say it doesn't feel like a middle chapter there is a problem with that? I'm not tracking that. And I'm not tracking your argument here in particular. I mean it was just a month or so ago that you were arguing that there was nothing about Luke's severed hand that had to be answered in RoTJ. We don't see him do anything with the mechanical hand, we have no idea if it will affect him or not, but you say it's just a metaphor for loss; doesn't need to be explored.
    https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ate-to-challenge-rey.55650/page-4#post-529018

    Now you are arguing that we have to see how Finn looks as a member of the Resistance; after we have seen him informally (TFA) and formally (TLJ) fight as a Resistance member? Did we likewise need to see what Han looked like as a member of the Rebellion coming out of ESB? I'm curious to see how you see this all fitting together; these ideas seem dissonant to me. Are you saying you want to see Finn do something beyond "going on covert missions"? If so on this we agree but that's not a question that TLJ specifically prompts us to ask. It's something we could see, but there's no question that needs to be answered in response to a TLJ plot point right?

    Obi Wan says Luke was their last hope, and Yoda says, "No there is another" and then we see Leia use the Force. I think there is a reasonable argument to be made to ask who she was beyond a princess that Leia was able to hear Luke's distress combined with Yoda's comments. If you are saying you didn't wonder about it coming out of ESB, I take you at your word. I don't think that was the only possible position coming out of ESB; it certainly wasn't mine. Is it a fair assumption, since you didn't mention any of the other questions I mentioned, that you agree they are posed in ESB and have to be answered in RoTJ? Because my list wasn't exhaustive (I didn't even mention Han, or the Rebellion or the Emperor) but the point was that ESB provided threads (deliberately) that were expected to be resolved in the next movie. TLJ (also I believe deliberately) does not.
     
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  10. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    Let's try this again. (I'm picking one of your quibbles)

     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    ESB explicitly asks questions.
    TLJ doesn't explicitly ask them but leaves them lingering.

    That's the only difference here.

    You are trying to make strawman arguments by trying to make literal connections between different stories.
    You are comparing a huge change in the character of Finn to Luke and his lost hand. Those are apples and oranges.
    I keep re-reading this trying to understand how you are drawing a comparison to this.

    We don't NEED to have anything answered in an open-ended universe. We didn't NEED anything with Luke's hand. We don't NEED anything with Rey's parents. We don't NEED any of this. We don't NEED Finn's quest furthered. But it could. How will he handle this? Will he lead the trooper rebellion? Will he become what people thought he was? Kind of like Luke Skywalker...

    But it is the point. Because you are seemingly unwilling to even ENTERTAIN the thought that there's more to do with Finn.

    I'm out. Have a good one. This is gonna be a circular argument that will get nowhere fast.
     
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  12. Dr. Reebox24

    Dr. Reebox24 Rebel Commander

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    GONDOR ANSWERS THE CALL!
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    There's a lot to unpack here, but as an entry...



    I agree that unless we get confirmation it's impossible to say whether or not Snoke was always planned to die in VIII.

    However, I think it's a bit strange to believe that the trilogy wasn't significantly storyboarded, and that something as big as Snoke's death/Kylo's ascension wouldn't have been accounted for in at least some way. That's just... how trilogies tend to be made. The idea that Disney is flying by seat of their pants just doesn't really gel with the realities of filmmaking.


    And as for RJ killing snoke because he "didn't like the character"... I don't know, that just doesn't hold up for me. RJ could've tabled Snoke, like Palpatine was for the majority of the OT. I think that's a pretty dangerous assumption to make.
     
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  14. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Snoke was likely going to need to die before the end of the trilogy. If RJ didn’t do it in TLJ it would have happened at some point in IX. RJ felt like it would benefit the growth of Kylo as a villain if it happened in TLJ so it happened when it did. Snoke has always seemed to me to be the shadowy evil doer than a main character. He served his purpose in the trilogy and aided in the growth of Kylo’s character
     
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  15. Supreme Leader

    Supreme Leader Rebelscum

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    the reason why Kylo killing Snoke doesn't do much for his prospects as a vilian in Ep 9 is because he saves Rey by doing so and immediately wants to join up with her afterward. now he's supposed to be her nemesis in the next film??...not a very good set-up. unless there's to the Snoke thing than meets the eye which i'm inclined to go with.
     
  16. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    No he doesn't. He wants her to join up with him. There's a difference.
     
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  17. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel Commander

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    It sounds like there is a lot of conflicting information about the creative process behind this trilogy. Maybe the ST box set will have a documentary that explains it all.
     
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  18. Dr. Reebox24

    Dr. Reebox24 Rebel Commander

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    I think we’re ignoring the fact that Kylo Ren still has the Knights of Ren who could be just as bloodthirsty and vicious as Kylo on his worst days. In fact I think they may be the catalyst for his potential turn in Episode IX, they can sense him faultering so they decide as a group that he’s a liability
     
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  19. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

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    You have this so very wrong.


    Thanks for explaining it. Though, it really shouldn't need explaining...
     
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  20. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Is there really?
    I haven't noticed any well sourced conflicts.
    Unless you mean unsourced YouTube reports of differing things which you shouldn't take seriously...
     
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