SPECULATION Knights of Ren

Merchandise leaks have referred to Kylo Ren as "Commander of the First Order"

Snoke hasn't officially been tied to the first order, but his title of "Supreme Leader" seems telling.

 

Ok cool thanks
Supreme leader and what we know of serkis does tend to lead him being over the first order but I will wait till confirmed and speculate

 

OK thanks anyway... I wish the system told me WHO did it.

 

That could work! Could explain the conflict that Kylo feels throughout the sequel trilogy and his eventual return to the light side.

 

On those two things, I think he was officially linked to the First Order by all the promo art released of him that has their symbol. That said, it doesn't exactly mean he is part of it... It could be that the First Order and the Knights of Ren have a sort of alliance going on, with the First Order being the government and the KOR being the religious aspect that influences but is also at odds with those on the government side. Kind of like Iran or something similar.

EDIT: Or I guess even like the Jedi were to the Republic -- not part of the government but certainly played a role in politics when it suited them. Perhaps the KOR are the "Jedi" of the First Order?

On the KOR being linked to Luke, I've seen someone else speculate that as well. What if Luke actually founded the KOR, and it was taken over from within by its own members, with Luke being forced out? Kylo could be living up to the ideals and goals originally set by Luke, but in a heavily perverted reading of them.

 

Hopefully not too off-topic, but my recollection of this one was that it came from a trusted MSW source, regarding the interim between eps 6&7. I could be wrong, it may have been one of the reddit sourced "spoilers". The crux of it was that the Imperial Fleet suffered a major loss at Jakku and wandered off into a nebula to fight another day. As ludicrous as that may seem at first, I also remember reading it within the whole scope of the list of events and thinking "yeah, that feels right". Anyone who can remember the source or link through, go for it.

Regarding The Knights of Ren, I am really happy they are expanding on the mythology. We never really have had much Dark-side mythos or Sith cannon. I really like the idea that they were a sort of Jedi restoration effort gone wrong, and that fits with hermit-Luke - but the little boy inside me is really hoping hermit Luke is way off the mark.

 

I'm also quite happy that there is a new threat in galaxy.

What I don't like is notion that KOR originated from Jedi Academy. It's not mysterious enough. In addition this concept was already recently used by Disney in Winter Soldier (it's not Shield, it's Hydra!).

 

I just hope they are much harder to defeat this time.

 

In reviewing recent concept art from Indie Revolver, and some new canon information we have been provided, I have a theory of what the Knights of Ren really are, that I think links up too well.





If this is what the other Knights of Ren look like, I am almost convinced that these are descended from or related to the "Cylo" cyborgs Palpatine commissioned to take the place of Vader, that we have seen in the new comics. Note especially the concept piece here that has a completely cybernetic arm. Plus, it falls right in line with a contingency plan that Palpatine would have had in the event of Vader's demise, and even his own.

Think about it. Typical of every Sith, Palpatine was always looking for his next apprentice. After he saved Anakin from the lava lake, causing him to be re-born (a "Confucionism" definition of "Ren") as the armored cyborg Darth Vader, the wheels began turning and Palpatine became interested in how technology can be used to take the place of, or enhance, Force powers. They started using Inquisitors to locate Force sensitives (and execute Jedi). So, Palpatine commissions the creation (or re-birth) of cybernetic Force users from these sensitives the Empire academy and Inquisitors are rounding up. Remember Zare Leonis' search for his missing sister Dhara. In any event, these cybernetically enhanced Force sensitives become the "Knights of Ren" that were inspired by the re-birth of Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader. When Darth Vader is ultimately defeated, the best of the best Knights of Ren takes his place. When Vader and Palpatine himself are killed, these Knights of Ren are left to fill the dark side Force-user vacuum that is left behind. Someone continues the program, ultimately attacking Luke Skywalker and whatever light side Force users he has taken in. Kylo Solo is a young apprentice of Skywalker's that is abducted at a young age, in part because of his heritage, to ultimately be raised as a Knight of Ren and lead the dark side forward as Darth Vader was supposed to do.

While these Knights of Ren may not be true Sith, they are a logical continuation of what Palpatine would have put in place as a contingency for the ultimate death and replacement of Vader and perhaps unwittingly, Palpatine himself. This is different from @Bluestreaking's Third Order theory, which in my mind requires that there be far more unseen characters, orders, and machinations for hundreds or even thousands of years, than this theory. I also think this theory has the benefit of more support in the new canon pieces, which we have been told (or at least it has been suggested) will provide some backstory in our Journey to the Force Awakens. I would love to hear what everyone thinks about this theory, too.

 

My main problem with it is that using cybernetics to give characters Force abilities makes midichlorians look like a good idea.

I'm really hoping they don't further cheapen the mysticism of the Force with this whole "become a Force user through nanotechnology implants" angle.

 

I respect your opinion, but I really don't like the idea of cyborgs running around everywhere. Therefore, I am going to challenge your theory.


For starters, the "Knights of Ren" pics do not resemble the cyborgs from the comics. In fact, these knights actually look more primitive than the cyborgs from the comics which look like Star Wars Terminators/Super-hero task force. Why would they go back to a more primitive form if they weren't already primitive? It wouldn't be because it, "looks more evil".


Kylo is a Ren. While we are not 100% sure he is human, we've kind of been hinted at the fact that he is the child of Han and Leia. He is clearly not one of the original cyborgs. So how does he play into this? Do you think he's been turned into a Cyborg since then? If so, why?

I haven't read the comic so you know more than I, but don't they fail to get Vader (and obviously he lives)? So why would the emperor view them as a last resort and his legacy? I just feel like the Emperor is more clever than this.

 

okay, first thing.... Those comics are not part of "journey to the force awakens" and thus probably have nothing to do with the film.

Second, those cyborgs were more likely created as an alternative to the rule of 2. One of the ideas of the rule of 2 is that the more force users there are, the more the power is spread out between them.

Palpatines ultimate goal is likely to become the only (immortal) force user in the universe... These cyborgs seem to have been developed to replace darth vader not as apprentices, but as enforcers for palpatines will that can be equally effective to something like an inquisitor.

 

Or... it could be like the Sith were to the Empire.

Admiral Motti: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient Jedi religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you enough clairvoyance to find the rebels' hidden fortress..."

Darth Vader: "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

 

Go to MSW. New info.

 

I apologize in advance as I am going to be a little bit all over the board here...

While I note that it is possible that Palpatine had one of two objectives in mind, technology enhancing Force power vs. technology replacing Force power, the latter might be a way to keep the mysticism intact. And it also furthers my theory that Force sensitives would be viewed all over the galaxy with skepticism since they have arguably been the root cause of the age-old conflict. In this version, the Knights of Ren are almost like Paladins trying to rid the galaxy of these Force-sensitive "gods" while still protecting Palpatine's primacy as the ultimate Sith lord.

I don't disagree that there is a different look, but things can evolve in either direction. That, and I don't expect the movies to be completely beholden to a look developed for the comics.

Agree, based on his age, Kylo is not one of the original "Cylo" cyborgs, but I think he was abducted by them. Whether or not he is now a cyborg, too, remains to be seen. You are also correct that Vader has been, and must ultimately be, successful against these Knights of Ren, but perhaps that is why they become almost reverential of him. After all, perhaps they actually see Vader ultimately vanquish the one who they thought would be their eternal master, as explained further below.

I also don't view the "Knights of Ren" as Palpatine's last resort or even his legacy. Rather, I would like to think these Knights of Ren ultimately became, or are at least related to, Palpatine's Red Imperial Guards. (Red seems to also be an important color in the First Order.) There is a similarity in their helmets with the medieval look of the concept art for the Knights of Ren. Very mysterious bit players in the OT, which I would like to know more about. It also serves a good purpose on a couple of fronts: (1) They are in the background the whole time, allowing the Knights of Ren to have been hidden in plain sight from us all along; (2) On a deeper level within the OT storyline, they remind Vader that he must be loyal to Palpatine, otherwise the Red Imperial Guards/Knights of Ren are waiting in line and ready to protect Palpatine. Think about it this way: The Sith Rule of Two almost ensures that Palpatine will one day be overthrown by his apprentice once he becomes powerful enough. If you want to be the eternal ruling Sith, you take some precautions. Pretty clever if you ask me.

My feeling is that everything under the new canon is inter-connected and provides deeper understanding of the movies for those that want to venture that far in. But it is not necessary for the casual moviegoer. All it would take is brief exposition in TFA connecting the Knights of Ren with the Imperial Guard, and a brief panel in a future comic showing a transition between the two groups. As for your other points, I actually somewhat agree but think this can be incorporated in, as explained above.

 

It is interconnected, but nothing outside of Journey to The Force Awakens has any connection to the movie.

 

Source?

 

. But the designs are significantly different. And for them to change so much in about 40-45 years? It's definitely possible. But it seems unlikely in my opinion.

The Knights of Ren being the royal guards sounds a lot cooler than being his cyborgs super-squad. But I still think that they are a new entity.

I'm not so sure everything in the comics will enhance the movies. I think many things won't even be addressed in the films, at least the new films, because most of the comics thus far have been between episodes IV and V.

 

I can't disagree with any of your points, although I will say that the Knights of Ren concept art are just that... concepts that may or not be used in the movies for the original purpose. And hey, not everyone is going to think comics "enhance" anything because they are just comics. To each his own, right? I do think we may get further comics set between ESB and ROTJ, so who knows what further developments there may be...

 

I came across this definition of ren online and a wonder if there is some kind of connection to KoR? What do you guys think?

Ren (Chinese: 仁; pinyin: rén; Wade–Giles: jen) is the Confucian virtue denoting the good feeling a virtuous human experiences when being altruistic. Ren is exemplified by a normal adult's protective feelings for children. It is considered the outward expression of Confucian ideals.

Yan Hui, Confucius's most outstanding student[citation needed], once asked his master to describe the rules of ren. Confucius replied, "One should see nothing improper, hear nothing improper, say nothing improper, do nothing improper."[1] Confucius also defined ren in the following way: "wishing to be established himself, seeks also to establish others; wishing to be enlarged himself, he seeks also to enlarge others."[2] Another meaning of ren is "not to do to others as you would not wish done to yourself."[3] Confucius also said, "Ren is not far off; he who seeks it has already found it." Renis close to man and never leaves him.[4]