SPECULATION Kylo Ren's Secret Mission

I don't believe Kylo's mission started until he found the map containing Luke's location.

 

Thanks for the interesting attachment. I've written out the text for easier reference:

The lightsaber skills of Kylo Ren are, ironically, responsible for that elegant weapon and its combat forms remaining unknown to the galaxy at large. Kylo Ren betrayed the other Jedi students studying with Master Luke Skywalker, and is responsible for their destruction. He has well earned the nickname "Jedi Killer", whispered in the First Order ranks, as it was his deadly lightsaber skills that prevented the return of the Jedi Order. ​

To be honest, I get no other association from this info bit but the force vision with the Knights of Ren. And Pablo says that massacre was not the destruction of Luke's temple. Why not simply state that Kylo slaughtered them, why make it so complicated with this vague "responsible for their destruction" formulation? Why is the nickname whispered unless it's only a rumour? Why not call him Jedi Butcher? We can see clearly in the forceback that Kylo's deadly lightsaber kills a "warrior", and it looks like he's holding another lightsaber in his left hand afterwards. Maybe Kylo prevented the "awakening" of the vanished Jedi by nicking Luke's old lightsaber (before losing it to Maz). I feel that the wording of that passage is deliberately vague. So no, I still don't believe that Kylo personally slaughtered his fellow Jedi students, not from this evidence anyway.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016 ---

Do you mean when he found out that Lor San Tekka had it, before TFA starts? That's my take. He's getting edgy when the FO are zeroing in on Jakku. Or do you mean later?

 

The first one, yes I do.

 

If Kylo once dumped little Rey on Jakku because he didn't mind her being alive as long as she doesn't do any Jedi stuff, then by the time TFA starts, the FO (or Snoke at least) seem to have caught up with him. It looks to me as if he's making up a plan as he goes along but one impression I get is that he doesn't want anybody to get to Luke before (or without) him, not even Leia.

 

Interesting thing what you say here, because in the Script says:
"We follow Rey and she runs down the corridor, but it all TILTS -- TURNS -- and she lands on the WALL -- which is now the GROUND -- dried GRASS.
She turns to look -- we PIVOT -- and see a BURNING TEMPLE AT NIGHT. We PAN to:
R2-D2 -- who watches the flames -- and a MAN appears (LUKE, whose face we do not see). He falls to his knees, reaches out to the droid -- with a MECHANICAL RIGHT HAND.
We PUSH IN ON REY as RAIN BEGINS -- and DAY TURNS TO NIGHT --and she LOOKS UP -- we TILT UP -- To see we're LOOKING UP AT A WARRIOR as he is STABBED BY A FIERY LIGHTSABER! He screams and falls to the ground -- we FOLLOW HIM, revealing Rey again, now in a nighttime battlefield. She gets to her feet, frightened by what she sees. We PIVOT AROUND HER to REVEAL KYLO REN, and the six other KNIGHTS OF REN, who flank him! "

By reading it carefully it seems that both, the "burning temple scene" (day) and the "battlefield scene" (raining at night, with Kylo Ren and the other Knights of Ren) did take place in different moments in time....

Impressive...Most impressive...

 

Interesting. Well to me it would make perfect sense if Kylo was some kind of double-agent working for Luke Skywalker. I say this because I can't figure out why Kylo would be so up on trying to emulate Vader. At one point Rey taunts Kylo with something like "You're afraid you'll never be as powerful as Darth Vader" like it's a power-worship thing. But the truth is that Luke Skywalker was more bad-ass and powerful than Anakin. Luke was the powerful one. He beat Vader. Vader didn't lose because of any sentimentality. He was using sentiment to taunt Luke. He taunted Luke by mentioning his sister, and Luke directly proceeded to open up a can of dark-side on Vader's crippled ass.

I mean how does Kylo Ren not know this? Why is he not wearing a Luke Skywalker mask? Why is he not trying to emulate Luke? It makes no sense. Kylo fears he'll never be as powerful as Vader, then he should be fearing he'll never be as powerful as Luke, because Luke was more powerful than Vader. It definitely would make a lot more sense if Kylo were working with Luke. Though, I'm not thinking that's what the writers have in mind.

 

so what do you think Snoke gains from stringing him along?

yep. the above quote is the only place it actually uses the word "killed" and it's from a website, right? which i find dubious.

it will likely turn out to be true, but the deliberately vague choice of "destroyed" makes it seem like something else is going on and/or they are trying to put semantic distance between Kylo Ren's betrayal and Anakin's murder of the padawans (and that might be all there is to is).

but until the movie says they're dead, i'm not buying it ~ hahaha

 

Agreed but that didn't go to plan thanks to little Rey.

 

hahaha ~ one way or the other: show us the bodies!!

 

I could imagine that Kylo has been living in some form of "inner exile" within the FO for years. He had the comfort of a totalitarian organization and an interesting job as a Jedi hunter, with a lot of autonomy. He only concealed from his boss how he got the job in the first place (by cheating). At the same time, he doesn't share the values of the FO and he leaves them alone as long as they leave him alone. That probably worked fine until Jakku.

From Snoke's point of view I guess it doesn't matter if he knows that Kylo tries to conceal something that Snoke knows anyway, as long as Kylo does his job. Had Snoke confronted Kylo earlier, he might have bailed. Han says that Snoke uses Kylo for his power, which could be Force-sensitive footwork Snoke can't do himself. So it would be smart for him to play along as needed. It's only when Kylo becomes downright unpredictable after the Jakku incident that Snoke starts taking action on behalf of the FO.

 

Here is the exact Quote from the Star Wars The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary. States that he is known as the "Jedi Killer":

 

Glad you bring up this bit from the interrogation scene, because I believe it's deliberately deceptive. Basically, I guess, Rey sees the image of Kylo talking to Vader's helmet (which we have already seen, with sound), and because she is prejudiced, she reduces Kylo's bond with Vader to a power-worship thing. I think Rey is supposed to be wrong about Kylo in this scene, and he is supposed to feel hurt because he's misunderstood.

 

Jedi killer may not mean anything. it could be water cooler talk (why is it "whispered" in the ranks? why would it be a secret?). it could refer to his mission to kill Like (who is decidedly not dead). it could be a semantic in the opposite way "destroyed" is being used. it could be a joke for all we know.

i get that the logical conclusion is that he killed the other students, but again, until i see the bodies, i'm going to argue for alternatives ~ hahaha

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 26, 2016 ---

this kinda of brings up the whole FO hierarchy thing again: how the organization is organized, who answers to who, etc.
i definitely see Snoke prizing himself of Ren for his power, as you said. but Ren is also a threat (keep your friends close, but your enemies closer is basically what you're suggesting?).

not to get into too deep a loop, but if Snoke knows that Ren is plotting, don't you think Ren would know Snoke knows? hahaha

and since you bring up the bridge scene: it's clear from Ren's reaction to Han that he understands Snoke is using him. what's your read on that? why wouldn't he tip his father off if he's got some plot? a lot of people argue that he deliberately walked away from Han and Han screwed it all up by following him, but it seems like there's a million better ways he could have handled that bridge encounter without killing his father if he does, indeed, have a secret agenda.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016 ---

this is super weird and i don't necessarily agree, but i like it ~ hahaha

 

Well I do get the impression from their conversations that both Kylo and Snoke are testing the waters, so to speak. But from Kylo's point of view, what difference would it make if he knew that Snoke knew? Snoke knowing that Kylo is hiding former students of Luke is BAD NEWS for Kylo, so he may as well try to pretend everything is well as long as he can, while trying to hatch out a plan how to get away with it.

Trying to get away for good with not having killed Luke's students may be Kylo's mission, actually. Yet, in TFA it comes to haunt him. His parents use Rey's existence as an excuse to claim that there is still light in him, and therefore he must come home. Snoke accuses Kylo of undermining the interests of the Dark Side with his sentiment, and forces him to accept greater and greater atrocities (like blowing up the entire Hosnian system) to prove his loyalty. I mean, Kylo can't make anybody happy. He just wants to be in the middle, like Vader.

The problem for Kylo, as I see it, is that things simply get out of hand. He never wanted Rey to be associated with the droid and the map and the Falcon and Han. That's terribly incriminating. He didn't want her to retaliate during the interrogation. He didn't want her to escape. His "finish what you started" speech, which defines his secret mission, did originally occur before anybody even knew Han was involved. I don't believe that having to deal with Rey was part of that original mission. She was rather the "call to the light" which threatened to undermine the original mission he had planned.

As far as the bridge scene is concerned, I agree with the people who claim that Han screwed up by following his son. If Kylo is to get some closure, he has to confront Snoke, and for that he needs to be look loyal. So his family has to stop showing up on SKB; people are starting to talk around Kylo! I mean, what would you do?
Snoke has played into your vanity since you were a baby, he made you feel proud of your Force powers when nobody else did. Seduced by that guy, you destroyed your uncle's Jedi Temple. Your uncle has been in exile for about 15 years because he believes he has lost his family. You have for the past decade or so supported a totalitarian organization that has just blown up three planets, including the one on which your mother's "employers" were residing. And now Daddy asks you to come home with him? Because everybody in the neighbourhood would be so thrilled to see you? Your uncle would definitely not mind your little mishap? Let's not mind the FO, which are now inpenetrable because you no longer have access to their ranks and facilities. They will probably stop just because you leave.

Okay, if stabbing your stalking father and getting Rey and Chewie on the run is too theatrical for you, try to explain to your Daddy as quickly as possible (because there are actually explosives around) that you have to risk staying in the FO and confronting evil mastermind Snoke, in order to somehow justify the sacrifices you have forced yourself and others to make over the years. So people can at least stomach the fact that you still exist. You say there are a million better ways to communicate this. I couldn't come up with a single one. You try.

 

Snoke is terrified of the rise of the new Jedi. Ren harboring those potential Jedi seems kinda a big deal to me ~ but okay.

hahaha ~ we agree on this 100%!

actually, it's when he finds out that Han has BB-8 that he goes to talk to Vader's mask. the inference given the juxtaposition of the scenes is that Snoke provokes him to think about his father, and that unsettles Ren's resolve. but that's the heart of the question, innit? is he confirming a secret mission or just merely fighting against the pull to his family?

Come home: we miss you.
I'm not going with you and if you don't run, I'll have to kill you and I don't want to do that.

Come home: we miss you.
I'm taking you as my prisoner. We'll figure out how to save you from Snoke later.

Come home: we miss you.
I'm not coming home. [keeps walking across the bridge].

Will you help me?
Yes, anything.
Then run and don't look back.

Will you help me?
Yes, anything.
Then trust me [arrests him].

Will you help me?
Yes, anything.
Take my weapon and cut me down (wound me, whatever; make a show of a fight).​

my point is, if he has a plan, he's had plenty of time to think about this inevitable confrontation. if he's clever enough to do all that other subterfuge, he'd be clever enough to deal with his stalker father.

my read on that bridge is that he knows this confrontation is inevitable and he doesn't know how to deal with it. he thinks it's going to be easy to kill Han (which is why he plays the whole "I've been waiting" oooo scary Kylo Ren thing). but when he actually has to deal with Han face-to-face, he crumples like origami. his indoctrination is one thing, but having to follow through is entirely another.

 

I love the original premise of this thread, basically trying to discern Kylo Ren's true motives and whether they in fact deviate from those of Snoke. As others have said, his motivation is to finish what Darth Vader started. It is true that Darth Vader had a few major motivations, including ruling the galaxy himself with his family. I especially like the idea that what Kylo wants, as much as anything, is for the Skywalkers to rule the galaxy because he thinks only the powerful are worthy. However, he knows that is not the motivation of either Luke, as the Last of the Jedi, or his mother Leia.

So who else is there for him to rule with? Presumably Rey, which is part of the reason that he offers to train her as his own apprentice.

See, this would be Kylo's motivation for "saving" Rey from his massacre of Luke's Jedi. Maybe he saw all other non-Skywalker Jedi as weak and foolish like his own father and therefore not worthy of his and Vader's vision for ruling the galaxy. I have postulated before that perhaps in his own moment of "sentimental" weakness, Kylo decided he could not murder his sister/cousin, knew it would be a problem with his new master Snoke, so he clandestinely mind-wiped her and dropped her on Jakku, hoping to never hear from her again.

Instead, perhaps this is actually part of Kylo's plan to finish what Vader started by preserving some member of his Skywalker family with whom he could one day rule the galaxy. She is perhaps part of his Skywalker family, told her that one day her family would return for her, intended to do so after he learned all he needed from Snoke so that he could eventually usurp his master and install his and Vader's Skywalker-led Empire. This also allows him to undermine the other members of the family who do not share his vision by controlling the narrative to her. He can play up her family's absence and abandonment of her to cause her to join him.

A different, and likely less probable, motivation I potentially see for Kylo goes completely against what I have written above. It is based on what I believe was Vader's greatest desire... and lines up with one of the most popular or controversial theories. So what was Vader's ultimate desire?

Yes, immortality and saving the ones he loved from death. Isn't this one of the most basal desires for mankind? Ironically, Anakin himself was "saved" from death by becoming a Force ghost. But that knowledge or ability did nothing for his non-Force sensitive mother and wife. So, is this what Kylo Ren is trying to finish? Figuring out how to bring back his ancestors from death? Maybe he is just trying to provide his grandfather as a Force ghost with some company from Shmi and Padme. I can't imagine that Anakin's version of "heaven" would not include those two. Might seem a little silly, but in all seriousness, wasn't this the one thing that Anakin/Darth Vader wanted more than anything?

If Kylo Ren can master the power over death, attaining true immortality and bringing back the dead (even if just in Force ghost form), it would perhaps explain his willingness to kill his own father. He wasn't sure if he could do it on the bridge and asked Han's help because perhaps he wasn't sure whether his ancient master, who he believes has that power, would ultimately impart that knowledge upon him.

Anyway, I'm not saying that this latter scenario is what I want to see, but I think it is undeniable that if Kylo Ren is lining up his motivations with those of Darth Vader, this would have been paramount to Vader's ultimate desires.

 

i see what your saying (i think), but the problem i see with this is that it's seriously consequential decision-making based on assumptions. Anakin jumped to all sorts of conclusions that Padme was going to die and that the Dark side power would prevent that and therefore he decides to forsake all reason and pursue that without any guarantees. for me, personally, it made Anakin look like an idiot. i'd hate Kylo Ren to be just as big an idiot as his grandfather ~ hahaha

even if he has this idea of immortality, there's no rulebook about how that works. he's got no guarantee that he can save his father. why take that blood on his hands for some vague hope of a resurrection?

killing Han is the most problematic part of the whole "secret mission" thing, for me. i believe strongly that Ren has an agenda and it involves Luke and it's maybe ill-formed at best. but a big secret mission with this level of depth of thinking doesn't really track for me.

and as i have said before, i am totally open to being convinced otherwise (and want to be!), but it's gotta be supported in the information we've been given.