SPECULATION Kylo Ren's Secret Mission

Turning Luke wasn't really Vader's end game though, but more of a step along the path to the goal. Vader's end game was more about defeating the Emperor and taking Luke on as an aprentice to rule the galaxy alongside his Master and Father. Then maybe once the Empire was consolidated find time to become all powerful, cheat death and resurrect Luke's Mum?

Gah- too much complexity in Kylo's character to make anthing but uncertain conjecture!

Kylo has obviously got a steep character development curve comming in the next film for the audience to continue to think his status as a epic SW villan remains credible.

 

yeah, the problem is we don't know what agenda of Vader's he's following:

• Vader's galaxy-ruling dynastic end game?
  
• Vader's personal desires to save/cohese his family?
  
• Vader's place as the "chosen one" who would destroy the Sith/bring "balance" to the Force?
  
• Vader's little known unspoken quest to find the best chalupa in the galaxy?

and even if we did know which of these things Ren is fixated on, we have no idea if his perspective is manipulated/warped/deluded to such a degree that he's actually following the will off Vader.

Kylo Ren is the ultimate unreliable character in terms of his thinking process.

 

True that. It seems to me Snoke's gonna need all of his reputed wisdom to handle this powerful and tortured individual if Kylo's secret missions ever deviate from his own.

 

i am so hoping/looking forward to the moment when Snoke loses control of him. almost to the point that i don't even care if he comes back to the Light, just so long as he gets away from Snoke.

and i hope it happens sooner than later ~ hahaha

 

Ren and his little droogies.

on second thought, i still want him to come back to the Light ~ hahaha

 

Lol, socity and science tried hard to redeem Alex, but really only won a respite from his true nature...



Perhaps we can reflect on these Clockwork Orange quutes and how they may apply to our young Kylo...

"Senseless violence is a prerogative of youth, which has much energy but little talent for the constructive.”

"Is it better for a man to have chosen evil than to have good imposed upon him?”

"Goodness is something chosen. When a man cannot choose he ceases to be a man.”

On a side note though, the Alliance found out that Starkiller Base was going to to fire upon them through spies didn't they? I wonder if Kylo had anything to do with that, or if he was at least complicit?

After a second viewing, Kylo didn't seem to take a whole lot of pleasure in torture or killing, more he just didn't let morals get in the way of him achieving his objectives? He seems more ruthless than cruel.

 

all kidding aside, this is Kylo Ren to me. he hasn't chosen. he doesn't choose because he can't. Snoke chooses for him.

i have a strong feeling that's going to change in viii.

i don't know if he has moral compunction about anything because he's kind of an angry golem (there's nobody home). he seems to do things without thinking. but he also shows he's capable of actual cruelty in at least the way he talks to people. his sniping with Hux is pure spite. but i think the behavior overall mostly reeks of impulsive self-defensive backlash rather than calculation.

 

Is this an implication that Kylo is under some kind of mind control from Snoke and is incapable of making his own choices? (A plausible theory however unlikely.)

I agree. He seems to me to be actively fighting what remains of his conscience hence his inner conflict with the light.



I'm reminded of my political theory classes. If my memory serves me correctly, anarchism's critique of "enforcers" centers on the idea that anyone who obeys orders rather than their conscience cannot be trusted. They are seen as potential enemies rather than allies - especially those whos consciences can be bought.

I see Kylo in a similar light. Someone who has been twisted, through indoctrination perhaps, to regard his conscience as a dangerous weakness - one that must be ignored or overcome in order to achieve power and "honor".

 

no, not literal mind control, but a kind of indoctrination like you describe.
i think he's sublimated his will to Snoke and therefore incapable of making decisions of his own or exercising any real agency.
this is how Snoke controls him and keeps him from becoming a liability.
and this has been going on so long, Ren can barely even think outside of that dynamic.

 

I wonder what could snap him out of it (if anything)? I'm rooting for a mother's love at the moment but perhaps a discrediting of his "wise leader"?

 

i'm guessing wise leader and Ren are not going to have a meeting of minds regarding a certain scavenger and things are going to unravel.

he has to want something outside of Snoke's program if he's going to ever break free of his brainwashing. right now, Rey has already pulled his focus (completely derailed him in TFA), so i'm hoping it's a safe bet that she's the key to his questioning/challenging Snoke.

that said, i agree it's probably going to take Leia to actually drag him around to some kind of clarity.

 

i still don't think it's about power for Ren. not really.

if we just take the movie's dialogue for what it is, we know he's afraid of not being as strong as Darth Vader. this could power, this could be will, this could be heart. since Ren's relationship with grandpa is still nebulous, i'm erring on the side of nebulity (not a real word).

i agree, however, the fact that Rey is so powerful is a source of immense attraction to him. we know from the book that he sensed it at once and then built on that sensation through to the end. the movie leaves his motives for kidnapping her far more ambiguous since it seems he doesn't have any sense of her specialness until their little brain tug-of-war. but he is certainly awestruck by her to the point of seemingly forgetting all about Snoke by the end.

i don't imagine Ren has any misgivings about why Rey beat him silly, but i agree that whatever discussion Ren has with Snoke about her (whether we see it or not) is going to set the clock on the time-bomb of their relationship. maybe not because of Dark/Light power/strength or training, but just out of Ren's own sense of self-preservation. because Snoke will recognize Rey as the awakening (as Ren has), and Ren's going to eventually let Dad's words sink in "he's using you for your power", "he'll destroy you" and come to recognize that he may no longer be Snoke's special snowflake (and therefore his life is in peril).

the training thing is still about Luke to me: Snoke needs Ren in fighting trim (and he's clearly not in any state to take on Luke as he is now). i have a feeling Snoke's "correction" after what happened on Starkiller will temporarily stabilize Ren in the Dark, but that too may begin to erode Ren's fealty to Snoke. it's going to take some outside influence (probably Rey) to demonstrate to him that the hand that's feeding him is also beating him, but at some point he'll likely reach his limit.

we don't know yet what Snoke's value is to Ren.
you may be right that it's instruction/knowledge, which he desires to fulfill whatever destiny he thinks awaits him.
at least this may be what he tells himself.
we really don't know to what degree he's been deeply brainwashed.

 

Well, I'm not sure about this bit. Kylo does usually seem to be more ruthless than cruel...but he can be cruel when he chooses to be. Case in point: Kylo's lightsaber duel with Finn.

In my view, the sole point of this duel is for Kylo to get sadistic pleasure out of toying with Finn before he incapacitates or kills him. The first thing he does is put Rey out of commission so she can't interfere. Then he goads Finn into attacking him, simply so Kylo can strut around and do stuff like this

like he stepped straight out of the PT.

He lets Finn think he might actually survive this before he backs Finn up against a tree and ever so slowly burns a hole in his shoulder while Finn screams. It's all fun and games for Kylo until Finn gets in his lucky shot. Then Kylo abruptly ends it by slashing his back open.

On a side note, whatever Kylo's "mission" was with the map, by this point he has completely forgotten about it. Maybe it's not important to Kylo personally anymore, whatever it might have meant to Snoke. In any case, he could have gotten it in about 30 seconds right before this duel if he'd taken the time to consider it, because Finn saw the map too.

But no, Kylo is too busy completely losing his mind.

I think he's just a hot mess.

 

hahaha ~ yes!

he's pissed off at Finn, at himself, at his father, the universe, you name it.
mission? what mission? he's a total trainwreck.

 

Oh I don't know, just working off a bit of angst isn't he?

He could perhaps find healthier ways to deal with his emotions, sure, but who hasn't said or done something cruel or stupid in a moment of weakness and anger? Doesn't mean a person is inherantly sadistic by nature.

 

I don't think Kylo is necessarily cruel by nature, but the Finn part of the duel that I alluded to above really was sadistic in my view. He seemed to be really focusing his rage on Finn. I don't know if it was because he thought Finn shot him rather than Chewie (see Finn's look of horror when Kylo looks up at him afterward), if it's because FInn is standing in the way of him getting his new student (in his dreams), if he's projecting all of his own fury about his father's death and his own treachery onto Finn....or maybe a combination.

I'll say one thing...knowing what he knows about Kylo from his experience in the First Order, having seen Kylo murder Han, and then this on top of it all...




...I think this is best example of courage in the movie:

 

i think you stated it exactly right. he doesn't know how to deal with his emotions. he's angry and frustrated most of the time and clearly been allowed to act out well past the age that should ever be acceptable.

i'd hazard he's possibly not remotely sadistic by nature, but Snoke has taught him to be vicious. and he likely uses cruelty as a defense mechanism:
cause pain to others in order to deflect pain from himself.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 5, 2016 ---

no. lie.

Finn is awesome.

 

+1 and

Kylo does not fit into the FO- that is something he has in common with Finn.

And Finn managed to escape from the FO, that is something Kylo was not capable of. While standing on the bridge with Han, Kylo himself ( or at least a part of him) wished he could leave this all behind and come home. I guess somehow he has respect for Finn but on the other hand it drives him made.