SPECULATION Kylo Ren's Secret Mission

Hence my wording "did originally occur". The scene has been moved, from what I'v read.

WOW! Good one! I could totally buy that. So you're basically saying that Rey was making ripples too soon! No wonder Kylo freaked out in that control room! The whole point of being with Snoke and the FO was gone when his little niece nicked the Falcon and the droid.

 

yes, but it was moved from being a "pull to the light" reference to Finn, which doesn't really seem to feed into either argument ~ hahaha

if anything, it's a good indication that his conflict is independent of "the girl", the droid, everything (if they could just move it around so easily).

 

Like I said, I'm not really married to the idea, as I have always disliked the whole "ancient evil resurrected" bad guy trope and I am just as uncomfortable with that idea with respect to loved ones. Quite frankly, that whole motivation for Anakin in the PT was quite hollow for me, so I don't really like that potential "mirror" in the ST. Nonetheless, it is just sitting here staring us in the face. I worry that it could be an element of the ST because Kylo Ren wants to finish what Vader started and that motivation for Anakin was such an overwhelming one. It would definitely be a gutsy way for TPTB to go with the ST, but I fear it would be very difficult to pull off convincingly.

This would definitely be my preference and I think the possibility that the biggest secret reveal is not Rey's parentage, but that Kylo Ren was actually the one who saved her or spared her, could be a monumental one, especially when it comes to the inevitable temptation for Rey to the dark and Kylo Ren's redemption and pull back to the light... to the extent he is actually redeemable after what he did.

But to me, the dichotomy inherent in all Skywalkers is the big climax for the ST: Does Rey go dark or does Kylo come back to the light?

Fair enough... but remember, Yoda did tell Luke that he should sacrifice his friends if he must... or some words to that effect.

 

Your theory has the additional benefit of being an elegant way to put Master Luke in the backseat without doing away with him, something Mark Hamill had expected to happen anyway, if I remember correctly. So young Kylo is basically sizing up his uncle at the new Temple, and he goes, "Naah, you're getting old, man. I'd rather wait for your little kid to come of age, and then I'll rule with her." I mean, that's the first thing he says to Lor San Tekka as well. "Look how old you've become." Nicely irreverent.

 

i hear you about the sacrifice thing and there's room for that, for sure. it just doesn't feel like there was enough crisis to call for it (to me anyway).

not knowing what Vader started that he wants to finish is really a huge matter of interpretation still. whether it connects to this idea of immortality or ruling the galaxy or bringing balance to the Force.

personally, i think it's about bringing balance to the Force; he's just going about it in a monumentally deluded fashion due to Snoke's influence.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 26, 2016 ---

i think killing LST is a dramaturgical thing, not a secret plot thing.

by cutting down LST, we see that Kylo Ren has a hot button about his family, that he's stupidly impulsive, and it foreshadows that he's going to sabotage his own goals every chance he gets (and not intentionally ~ hahaha).

that said, i do think his relationship with LST is an interesting point that i hope gets explored somewhere.
i want LST to have a bigger part in all of this because he was awesome.

 

Does it? Would you mind posting the exact passage? Thanks!

Now quoting Wookiepedia

"According to the First Order, the Jedi were officially extinct, while it was forbidden to pronounce Kylo Ren's birth name by order of Supreme Leader Snoke himself."

I think Kylo was uncomfortable with where the conversation was going. LST mentioned "I know where you come from before you called yourself Kylo Ren" , I guess Kylo simply wanted to shut him up.

 

it's not really confirmation, but i agree the logical assumption is that he must have at least seen it at some point because he recognizes it.
the novel is equally vague:

 

i think there's something to that too. clearly it's something he covets and would have wanted if he knew it was out there.

i also wonder (this just got kicked loose in the thread about Maz & Rey) whether that silly lightsaber plays a bigger part in whatever this agenda Ren has regarding Luke. i keep going back to the idea of the Fisher King and the wounding sword and the circularity of that story.

i think Ren touched the saber and it told him something, but then he lost it, so he sought out Vader's mask hoping to reconnect, but hasn't been able to. i think the saber isn't important because it was Luke's, but because it was Anakin's. and this is why he thinks there's something to finish that Vader started.

could just be grasping. but i can't help feeling that the saber does belong to Ren as his birthright ~ he's just not worthy of it at the moment, so it's gone to find a means to make him so.

 

I think Kylo is basically selfish and entitled, and I don't know how family centric he is. Even though I think he yearns to be understood and have some sense of belonging, he doesn't really seem to be good at sgaring or playing well with others. He does seem to value members of his family that are more powerful, especially in the Force, than the mundane members. I guess there could be something in the idea of Kylo wanting to turn Luke. I am at least willing to toy with the idea of how it could work. Perhaps if we aply some Sith training philosophy to the situation.

"Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…"
―Darth Plagueis

So what would Luke see as his geatest strength, greatest fear? What would he cherish most, and what would he crave? And how would Kylo have helped put this into play? I have some ideas, but I'm on my way out so I'll have to come and tease this out a bit more later.

 

Most of all I think he would cherish a child of his own...

 

Hmmmm....



So Kylo's secret mission could be to knock up the most powerful force female he can find and start a powerful force dynasty that rules the galaxy forever?
Not sure I buy it. Why do you think he wants a kid? The poor mother, imaginge having Kylo and a todler. Oh, the tantrums!



Oh soz, you meant Luke. Yeah I get how that could tie into the turning Luke theory if Rey was his. I guess sacrificing yourself and your sister for the galaxy is one thing, but your offspring? Hmmm.

 

Aw GOD! You had me in fits there!!!

 

I really should read things more thoroughly and I keep telling myself not to post when I'm busy, tired or drunk. Then I realised if I did that, I would never post lol. Glad that gave you a laugh. It is my policy to try on all ideas, regardless of how silly, far fetched or wrong I might think them to be at first glance. Mostly as an exercise in open minded intellectual creativity, but it can yield interesting results.

Anyways, back to topic.

I think Kylo's secret agenda will be basically Kylo's, and though I think he may have been manipulated in the past he has his own priorities now. And I think he is still basically a selfish, self involved teenager. I don't know what it would take to turn him selfless, but I hope the writers find something as I'm gunning for the redemption arc. I tend to shy away from the 'he's actually up to something good and we just think he's evil' scenarios, as this would lessen the power of any potential redemptive arc. Though I concede it is not a disproven hypothesis.

 

OT: that movie was the first thing i ever saw Adam Driver in that wasn't Star Wars. he was so good in it, but man it was a disturbing film.

this is the train i'm riding as well. he's finally gotten to the point where he wants something of his own and he's frustrated with being used. and like you said before, he doesn't know how to treat other people or get along in the world ~ probably because he's always felt isolated and been torn between the whole "you're a special snowflake, but you're garbage" dynamic. his arrogance and his deep insecurities are completely at war in him.

i think whatever he's up to is grey at best (muddled, confused). he wouldn't know "good' from "bad" if he stepped in it.

 

i'm with you on most of this, but i think Snoke and Ren's relationship is not so "mutual" (for lack of a better word).
i still feel like Snoke tolerates this KOR hobby of Ren's because it gives him a modicum of agency (or the appearance of agency), and keeps Ren cheerfully focused on the Dark side. meanwhile, Snoke is controlling everything: Ren, the KOR, etc.

i could be way off base because i'm speculating on potential psychological subtexts about which we have scant evidence and one bit of dialogue which could just as likely be a bad line reading.

nevertheless, i agree that Ren still has ideas about Vader of his own and the KOR is part of that.