SPECULATION Luke isn't the last jedi

I don't understand what you're saying.
Are you suggesting that the Sith didn't cause an imbalance in the Force?

Look, the Sith/Dark Side users corrupt the balance of the Force because of their use of it.
They use the Force to gain power and spread evil. The more evil they spread the more evil there is in the galaxy.

Look at it this way. When the Sith are in command, they use the Force for evil. They oppress people. Spread fear. Destroy worlds. They even use the Force in unnatural ways - all for their own means.
This directly affects all lifeforms. It affects the symbiotic relationship between life and the force.
All life forms, especially sentient beings, become more and more oppressed by the evil in the galaxy the more power the Sith gain, the worse it gets.
"Life creates the Force" - so if the majority of life in the galaxy is oppressed and in fear then the Force that life creates will be affected.

That is why the Sith are like a cancer.
They are a completely selfish entity that feed off the Force to sustain themselves.

All this explanation aside, just read what Lucas said about Anakin destroying the Sith and it is that which brought balance.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2016 ---

Here's an analogy for why the Sith cause imbalance in the Force:

Look at the Force as swimming pool.
The Jedi maintain the pH value of the swimming pool.
The Sith come along and piss in it. They kill the Jedi. And they continue pissing in it. The swimmers have to swim in all this piss and are very unhappy. So they start crying and their snot goes in. And because they're scared they piss themselves too. So it's got all their unhappy snot and scared piss in it.

The pH value of the pool is unbalanced.

A new swimming pool chemical guy (!) or Jedi comes along, kills the Sith and puts some chlorine in the pool. It balances again. Everyone is happy.

 

Your analogy in wrong. Think about the Force as an ocean. The jedi/sith can piss in it, but no matter how much they piss they cant affect the ocean as its too big for them. All living things mean not just the humans/other aliens in the SW universe but also everything in the nature. Animals, plants, micro-organisms and so on. See? The pathetic wars of the mortals are all insigificant from the aspect of the Force. Its like ants trying to take over the world. They think they are many, but they dont even realise they cant even take over a small house. The force is just as old as the universe in SW, a thosand years of war is less then a blink of an eye. There is no balance or imbalance there is only the energy-field. So yes, im saying that IN THE ASPECT OF THE FORCE the sith cant create imbalance and the jedi cant create balance. Because balance is unreconcilable with the definition of the Force. The Force is always in balance its constant.

 

My analogy works fine.

WE'VE BEEN TOLD THIS BY LUCAS!

Force users affect the Force more so than other lifeforms, like we humans affect our environment more so than animals.
We humans burn fossil fuels, cut down rainforests and butcher animals by the billions.
Environmentalists are like the Jedi - they try to counter those that cause such great harm.

You're thoughts here are completely wrong. The films and quotes from Lucas go against what you're saying.

The Sith/Dark Siders use the Force to bring great suffering to the galaxy.
Their unnatural use of the Force creates imbalance as does the affect they have upon the galaxy and all its lifeforms (which in turn creates the Force).
When the Jedi destroy the Sith they are taking an extremely powerful, cancerous force out of the galaxy.
Then what is left is nature. The natural balance.

If you're saying that nothing anyone does in Star Wars affects the Force, then what is the point in any of it? Why does the Force even bother communicating with them? Why does it have a will?

 

Whats the point? The point is that sith are dangerous and unpredictable users of the force who can bring great suffering to the galaxy and its people. And they have to be stopped. Thats the point.
I dont know what were you told from Lucas, but in the movie nothing changed with the Force after the sith took over. The jedi can still use it the same way they did before. And after they defeated the sith again, nothing changed. The jedi use it the same way they used before, and if new dark side users come up they will also use it. You give too much importance to the lives of the jedi/sith there. The Force will be the same no matter what happens in the galaxy. At least CURRENTLY! Maybe epsiode 8 will change that, but currently this is the correct interpretation imo.

You have to look at the real reason why the whole balance of th force idea was put into the movie: Becase Lucas wanted a reason for Anakin to be important. It was a bad choice of writing imo which contradicts with the OT's conception of the Force in which it is constant, and beyond the possibility of beeing corrupted.

 

I think you'll find that a lot happens to the Jedi and the Galaxy (and as an extension, the force), when the Sith take over and imbalance the Force.

Firstly, the dark side clouds the Jedi vision. The more the Sith take over, the stronger the dark side and the more clouded the Jedi become.

Secondly, you're looking at the force like it is a separate entity. The force is the energy created by all living things. So when all living things are suffering from say...the Sith spreading fear, oppressing billions and destroying worlds, then that reaction is shown in their energy - which is creating the force! So saying the force is unbalanced is not some untagiable, abstract notion - it's saying that all life, especially sentient beings, are living in darkness.

Thirdly, you're suggesting that Lucas put this forward in the PT as a plot device but that it wasn't shown in the OT. Putting aside that the idea of the prophesy (originally from the journal of the Whills, around 1975) the OT most definitely highlights the imbalance of the force and the issues and problems that creates. To begin with Kenobi talks a lot about destiny and nothing being a coincidence. That tells us the Force has a will. Why would it have a will? Then you have the obvious affect the Empire has upon the Galaxy. Again, it is in ANH that Kenobi tells us that the Force is created by living things - their energy. So the Force is essentially the emotional manifestation of living beings. That what the imbalance is (life suffering) and thus the forces will is to rectify that.

 

Okay, the fact that the whole "Now there's an equal number of Jedi and Sith, therefore balance" thing is so common, it is starting to annoy me as that it is amazingly obvious that was never the intention. While Lucas did a terrible job elaborating on any of this in the prequels (I know, that's a shocker), there is a video of him talking to the writers of The Clone Wars explaining the Force on the Compete Saga Blu-Ray set. And he actually explained it very well and it was good. And he said that the Dark Side is imbalance. In fact, that's what we see constantly in the series. Actually, that's what we see constantly in most philosophies. The Dark Side isn't some missing piece of the Force, it's people perverting and twisting it. In a way, there is no Light Side, there is only the Force. The Dark Side is just the dark side of those who use it.
Now, was the Prophecy of the Chosen One poorly handed and unneeded? Yes. Was the whole Balance of the Force badly explained (if the Sith are supposedly gone and have been so for a thousand years, why would anyone remember this random prophecy?)? Yes. Is the idea of equal users of light and dark equal balance correct? No. And if that is what it meant, why would the Jedi ever allow the training of the Chosen One outside the fact that he's a moron?d
Also, don't forget that at its core, Star Wars is the fight of good vs. evil. And what sense does it make for evil to be needed for balance?

 

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 4, 2016 ---

Thank you! This is everything Im trying to say here. All of these ideas (balance of the Force, prophecy , chosen one etc) were so badly explained that you dont know anything for sure. Yes all of the above mentioned ideas could've worked if explained correctly. So this is why I always use the OT's interpretation of the Force (where there is no such thing as balance of the force or prophecies).

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 4, 2016 ---

First: only the vision of the jedi was clouded, not the Force itself (which is a bit odd, considering there are 1000s of jedi and only 2 siths so I would also call this bad writing)

Second: Lucas's original vision about the Force changed a lot since the 80s. I suggest you to read this (especially the part about Yoda's character and midichlorians): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/star-wars-prequels-return-of-the-jedi_n_3313793.html

Third: Nothing what Kenobi or Yoda said contradicts my interpretations and non of them applies yours. Just because the Force has a will it dosent mean the users can affect it by any means. The force is the source of the Jedi's power. But they can only use it and not influence it.

 

You keep getting transfixed on numbers of Jedi and Sith. The Dark Side clouds everything. It makes the Force foggy and the Jedi struggle to understand its will. 2 Sith so a lot of damage. When they emerge a lot of evil stuff goes down which clouds the Jedi's vision.

Of course he changed certain things. Although I'd say the midichlorian idea isn't contradicted. Everyone will have midichlorians and so with enough training anyone could access the force. But the more you have, the more powerful you can become. But my point was about Lucas always having a prophesy about a chosen one - it was in his very first draft.

But do you understand that the force is an energy field created by all living things? If those things that create the energy are suffering, if evil is everywhere, do you not see how that would unbalance the force? How it would mean that the dark side is taking over? That darkness is swallowing the light?

The Force is the manifestation of life. All life want freedom, peace and to be happy. So when life is suffering, when the dark side is oppressing them, the energy they omit that becomes the force would in itself desire an end to the darkness. This is the will of the force and the Jedi listen to it to enact its will and bring harmony.

 

That is an amazing way to word that.

 

How can two sith cloud the vison of thousands of jedi all around the galaxy? And if Sidious is so powerful, than why cant he also physically weaken the jedi?


Of course he changed certain things. Although I'd say the midichlorian idea isn't contradicted. Everyone will have midichlorians and so with enough training anyone could access the force. But the more you have, the more powerful you can become. But my point was about Lucas always having a prophesy about a chosen one - it was in his very first draft.

Than he had a bad decision in his very first draft. However I've never seen such draft. And if everybody can become a jedi via training than why the fck the midichlorians are needed? We dont need Dragon Balls over 9000! crap to star wars.



But do you understand that the force is an energy field created by all living things? If those things that create the energy are suffering, if evil is everywhere, do you not see how that would unbalance the force? How it would mean that the dark side is taking over? That darkness is swallowing the light?

The Force is the manifestation of life. All life want freedom, peace and to be happy. So when life is suffering, when the dark side is oppressing them, the energy they omit that becomes the force would in itself desire an end to the darkness. This is the will of the force and the Jedi listen to it to enact its will and bring harmony.


Very poetic, but doesnt make too much sense. Do you think bacteria and trees also want peace and freedom? There is no light and darkness. There is only the energy-field. If too many organisms are corrputed than the Force gets weaker or smaller I guess. But not unbalanced

 

To each their own.

Yes, bacteria and trees have desires. They're not the desires of sentient beings but desires never the less. Be it for light, food or water.
Remember, all life forms a symbiotic circle. What happens to one life form affects the other.
Kill all the bees in the world and there is a good chance all plant life will suffer and die.

I look at it this way.
Before sentient life our world, earth, was balanced.
Then man comes along and begins to act in unnatural ways.
We pollute, we destroy, we wage war, we murder (humans and animals alike).
Now there may or may not be a mystical energy field but nevertheless, the natural balance on earth is corrupted.
And that is felt by everything and everyone and will eventually result in total destruction if something isn't done.

It works the same in Star Wars.
The Force is created by all life.
Then the Jedi and Sith come along.
The Sith, using their hatred and anger to unleash the Dark Side.
They use the Force for evil to gain more power.
This use of the Force (the energy field created by all living things) essentially bites the hand that feeds them.
Beings across the galaxy suffer. They are oppressed. The more power the Sith gain, the more evil spreads (ROTS opening crawl - Evil is everywhere).
Thus the lifeforms that create the Force both feed the darkness with their suffering and fear but at the same time project their hopes and desires for freedom and peace. A return to the balance before the Sith.
The Jedi can hear this will and then use the Force to bring it about - by destroying the Sith.

Essentially, you're looking at it the wrong way around. It's not about the Force being unbalanced and the affect that has upon life - it's about the lifeforms across the galaxy being covered with darkness and thus the energy they create being corrupted - unbalanced.

 

I think its clear in the mythology of the force that the force has its/their own will. Sith and other dark side users manipulate the force into doing the user's will. The Jedi are supposed to defend the will of the force (not their own or anyone else's will: Jinn, Yoda, and Kenobi all stress this). These ideas are all canon. I think Shaitan is reading it mostly correctly by suggesting that using the force for one's own will corrupts the force, thus it is dark siders that cause "imbalance". Lucas really should have gone with corrupts or perverts or warps the force. The term balance causes so much confusion.

 

Wow, after graduating in physics with cuum laude I never thought I'm goning to learn new about biology on a star wars forum. So now trees feel happiness and seek freedom. Ok I guess. This was kinda the plot of Avatar but in nowhere do they talk about it in SW. And if you were talking about the reality, than you are wrong, Im sorry to say.

How can the sith corrput everything? By beeing angry? In the movies they usually just sit and control huge armies, or wondering around choking or force-lightning unlucky folks.
So according to you two sith can corrput the whole universe and bring unbalance to a galaxy sized energy-field. Ok thats your interpretation I respect it, good for you.
For me even the idea that the force-users can influence in Force is stupid. They just use it, but the Force is way-way greater than those pathetic mortals could ever even wish. Imo the Force is constant pure energy, and beyond the possibility of corrption or unbalance.
The vision of the jedi, or the usage of the force can be unbalanced or corrupted, but not the Force itself.

 

Did I say that? Or did I simply suggest that trees desire water and light?
My larger point was about how all life is connected and dependent upon one another.

How do the Sith corrupt everything?
No, not by just being angry. Try creating a galaxy wide war to get themselves into power. Or destroying a planet, along with billions of lifeforms, sentient and otherwise. Or oppressing planets and its populations and taking away people's freedom (democracy). How about removing the beings who listen to the the will of the Force? How about simply taking the Force and turning it into a weapon to kill people with?

If you don't think actions such as these have consequences with the Force - THE ENERGY FIELD CREATED BY THESE LONG SUFFERING LIFEFORMS, then you my friend are lost!

 

I believe both of you to be correct. From a certain point of view. But I think @master_shaitan has the best interpretation of the Force. As Yoda said, it's energy not only surrounds us and binds everything, it is created by living things. And all living things do have wills and a desires. They are most often instinctual, very primortial desires-- the desire to live, the desire to feed, etc. A plant has a desire to grow towards the strongest source of light. A dog has a desire to be affectionate with their owner.

I also agree with the point that the Light and the Dark both have to exist for a balance to exist. The darkness inherent in the Dark Side isn't dangerous, it simply is. The Dark Side is chaos, it is disorder, it is negative energy. In nature there are cycles. A tree grows, a tree dies, it stands for a short time before it falls and its matter is absorbed by the ecosystem. But there is a chaos in nature. A wildfire might come along and destroy an entire stand of trees before the end of that cycle. That doesn't mean the cycle stops, it simply means the trees were destroyed. They will still be absorbed back into the ecosystem and new trees will grow.

What makes the Dark Side dangerous is temptation to use chaos and negative energy to gain power, to oppress others, and to destroy. @General_Tarkin, you asked "How can two Sith cloud the vison of thousands of Jedi all around the galaxy?" That's a very simple answer: manipulation. That's how all minds are clouded, by manipulation. It's how politicians operate and Palpatine may have been the best politician of his day. The Sith decieved the Jedi and manipulated them by making the Jedi think they were extinct. For a thousand years the Sith operated with an interesting power dynamic: always two there were, a master and an apprentice. Sometimes they were lurking in the shadows, sometimes they were hidden in plain sight. For a millennium there was a master, the one who held the power, and an apprentice, one who craved the power. The apprentice could only gain the power by becoming more powerful than the Master. Apprentice defeated master, who became the master, and so on and so on, until we come to Palpatine, aka Darth Sidious.

Sidious was the ultimate Sith Lord. He was brutal yet wise. He was able to learn everything his master, Darth Plagueis, had learned about the living Force. Then he killed his master in his sleep, striking when Plagueis would be unable to use that knowledge to survive. Prior to Darth Vader his apprentices had promise, but didn't deliver. Darth Maul was brutal but not wise. Darth Tyrannus was wise, and ambitious, but not brutal enough. But they were both a means to an end. Palpatine recognized that the Jedi thought young Anakin Skywalker was special. He also recognized that they were apprehensive. Sidious saw in Anakin a chaos, a torment, a darkness that he could grab ahold of and manipulate. He did what every politician does when they want to manipulate you. They become your friend.

No, the Sith aren't dangerous just because they are dark, they are dangerous because they lie, they manipulate, they grab up power, and they set up the next in line to grab even more power. Sheev Palpatine was a senator from a rather unremarkable planet in the Senate, but he was able to pull off the greatest hoodwink ever. He used the Trade Federation and the Confederacy of Independent Systems as pawns in a game where he was the ultimate winner. He created an inexhausible army. He crowned himself Emperor. Then he used fear and xenophobia to control the galaxy for almost 30 years. And he created Darth Vader, perhaps the most brutal Sith Lord who ever lived. He just didn't count on Vader becoming wise enough to know that he didn't have to stay a slave to the Dark Side. When Vader destroyed the Emperor, he wasn't just destroying the Sith forever. He was showing that Dark doesn't have to overshadow the Light. He was displaying an understanding of the dynamics of the Force that I don't think we fully understand, and probably won't until the end of the new trilogy.

 

They only destoryed one single planet! How is that enough to corrupt every living orgasnism in the galaxy? Alright, so you are trying to say that two sith in a Rebulic which stood for 1000 generations (so roughly 25000 years) gets all corrputed (including every living organism like bacateria) in around 20 years because the sith is so angry and evil they can do it. Even if the Empire's army can fily with the 100x of lightspeed in 20 years they couldn't even reach the other side of the galaxy... And what does imbalance even mean in the aspect of the Force? Does It mean there is less force in some areas of the galaxy or what? The problem is even tho you trying to look for logical reasoning the very definiton of the Force is unreconsibile with ,,unbalance". Because the Force isnt divided to two parts so it cant be unbalanced. And even if it could be, it would require thousands or even millions of years of chaos and destuction in the galaxy in order to acomplish any effect. The billion years old Force will not get unbalanced after 20 years of dictatorship in the Rebulic. And the rule of the Empire might not be that bad. What if they brought economical stability to the galaxy after the war? Im pretty sure that not everybody hates the Empire in the lore of SW.

 

My interpretation of the Dark Side is this:
All life creates the Force. So yes, the is a good mix and a balance of good and bad that makes the Force's energy.
The Force is simply the collective consciousness of all lifeforms in the galaxy. Life creates positive and negative energy.
Happiness and sadness. Love and hate. Life and death. Peace and war.
When the Sith use the Dark Side - they access it through their own passionate (anger, fear, aggression, hatred)
The Dark Side is all those emotions. It is the darkness in us all. And this darkness in us creates the bad side of the Force.
Using the bad side of the Force amplifies the evil in the galaxy - and the more evil that exists the more powerful the Dark Side and its adherents become.
This results in all life being affected. And this life is what creates the Force in the first place - so the energy this life creates is now tainted strongly by evil.
And this is why the Force goes out of balance - because the natural order of things has been corrupted. A cancer is destroying it. That cancer is the Sith.
Essentially, it's not a fair playing field. There is now too much darkness. And it is not sustainable.
Thus the will of the collective consciousness of the galaxy speaks its will through this mystical energy field - and the Jedi listen.
It is the role of the Jedi, not to create more light so to speak but to stop the darkness from taking over and diminish it.
It is an impossibility to eradicate all the darkness. That is indeed naturally balanced with light. Good and evil will and must always exist.
But the Jedi must destroy the Sith who do create more darkness.
Once the Jedi destroy the Sith, as we see in the movies, balance is brought. Good and bad things still happen but there isn't a cancer anymore.
Or at least until another Sith Order or dark side faction returns.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2016 ---

It was called the Galactic Empire for a reason. It controlled the majority of the galaxy. And every planet had to bow to its will.
The Empire spread its fear, evil and oppression across many Star Systems.
Upon these planets in each Star System, the inhabitants are affected by the Empire.
They have no freedom. No democracy. Live in fear. Many suffer.
That alone, the energy created by these lifeforms is enough to put the Force out of balance.
But you must also remember what Qui Gon tells us about symbiotic relationships - what happens to one life form affects the other.
Alongside this, keep in mind that the Force "surrounds us, penetrates us, binds the galaxy together".
Hence when billions of sentient lifeforms are affected this affects the Force which in turn has a knock on affect upon life. The symbiotic circle becomes infected by the cancer of the Dark Side.
I see it like depression. If the collective consciousness/the Force is infected with the Dark Side then it becomes depressed. The galaxy is under a fog of Darkness. When the Jedi defeat the Sith they are essentially being the anti-depressant!


Endnote:

I'd also argue that the more sentient beings have a greater influence upon the two sides of the Force.
Non-sentient life for example, although omitting an energy that adds to the Force, is neutral.
Neither good or bad.
But sentient life, lifeforms that are morally responsible, are the ones that create good and bad energy. This is the energy that affects the balance.
And as I said above, it is essentially the sentient beings of the galaxy, in large numbers, that are oppressed by the Empire. Thus their energy is tainted with evil which then unbalances the Force.

 

i'm not sure if it's so much about influencing the Force through the Dark Side as much as it is manipulation. The Sith manipulate the Force to their own means.. their "lust for power". Take Darth Pleguis (sp?.. I always screw that one up lol) for example, if he indeed still exists. Manipulating the Force to achieve Immortality as Palpatine told Anakin. That's an unnatural perversion of the Force and life itself. And in turn, the Empire and now presumably the First Order also manipulate those they wish to dominate in their conquest of the Galaxy itself. Just as Sideous manipulated the Senate and in turn the entire Galaxy as he rose through the ranks to achieve the will of the Sith. Total domination.

How can this NOT bring unbalance? I think Master_Shaitan has really explained this well and quite thoroughly. Not to take anything away from General_Tarkin, it's been a great discussion. Cheers!

 

You didnt answer the very core of my post. How can only 20 years of dictaroship cause unbalance in the bilion years old Force? They only destroyed one single planet in the whole galaxy! What about the other billions? Do you realise that there is 200–400 billion stars on our solar system only? It would require thousands or even millions of years of chaos and destuction in the galaxy in order to acomplish any effect. The billion years old Force will not get unbalanced after 20 years of dictatorship in the Rebulic. And the rule of the Empire might not be that bad. What if they brought economical stability to the galaxy after the war? Im pretty sure that not everybody hates the Empire in the lore of SW.
Anything what the sith caused is only a small rock throwed into and endless ocean. It dosent have any effect to the Force.
And again what does unbalance mean? Does it mean that the force loses from its quality or what? All living organism suffer? Does that mean the plants cant photosynthetize anymore or what? Nothing what you saidd have any confirmation in the movies. Nothing really changed after the sith took over. The Force is exactly the same as it was before. And its the same after the sith got destoryed.

 

"Nothing really changed after the sith took over. The Force is exactly the same as it was before. And its the same after the sith got destroyed"

But if you watched The Force Awakens, it's called that for a reason. The Force had been dormant for a period of time.. we still don't know exactly to what degree, but clearly it is also "Awakening" for a reason.