SPECULATION Luke isn't the last jedi

I said it in a previous post, nothing changed yet! But maybe in episode 8 they will elaborate what awakening means. I would pretty much like if the force would become unpredictable or something interessting like that.

 

Read again, I did answer that. In depth.
We're not going to agree so we should just agree to disagree.
But I believe my views are fully backed up by George Lucas and the movies.
Ok, one last time:

We see how the Force goes slowly out of balance as the Sith emerge, how evil is then everywhere and then how the Empire rises bringing with it a dark cloud that is spread over the entire galaxy. Once the Sith are destroyed, balance is brought.

How can we measure that balance? How do we know the Force was out of balance?
Because we are shown (and told about) the suffering of billions of sentient lifeforms across the galaxy. And it is those lifeforms that create the Force.
And the energy these lifeforms create bind us life together.
You keep calling it "a billion years old Force" which tells me you're missing the point. The Force is not a separate entity. It is not some celestial power. It is not a God.
The Force is the collective consciousness of the galaxy. Ongoing and current. And when the Sith are spreading evil everywhere that consciousness is corrupted by darkness and the Jedi have to remove the Sith to balance the scales.

What was this thread about again?!

 

It will become unpredictable, at least to the Jedi, if the Sith are once again to rise and cloud what the Jedi are able to see and feel from the Force. It was unpredictable to Yoda and the Jedi Order as Sideous tightened his grip in the PT. And it was unpredictable to Yoda, Ben and Luke until Anakin destroyed Sideous and thereby the Sith by redeeming himself. Can't wait to see what happens next! And to learn how exactly that balance unraveled since ROTJ.. cause we still really don't have a grasp on that yet either.

 

The problem is that non of that was confirmed in the movie ,,Because we are shown about the suffering of billions of sentient lifeforms across the galaxy" Please link me the scene where they show that any of lifeforms suffer (obviously except the Alderan part) in the world of SW. Yes, there is a dictatorship going on, its pretty obvious that some humans and aliens suffer from it, and some not (those who supprt th Empire). But the whole ecosystem of the galaxy? All we see is that some weirdo in a helmet goes around with his british-nazi army controlled by an old guy who sits in a chair.
Luke is pretty fine on Tatooine, he has friends, wants to go to college, lives his life as normal as he can. On Endor the ecosystem is pretty nice and green and show no sign of suffering even tho its directly next to the death star 2.0 with Sidious on it.

 

A New Hope begins on Tatooine.
On this planet we see Jawas executed, old farmers burned alive, the presence of the Empire/Stormtroopers everywhere. Outside of the film but canon is that the moisture farmers have to pay a percentage of their income to the Empire. They have to work exceptionally hard to make a living. Luke tells us he hates the Empire. Why is that if they don't cause any suffering?

Then we see the destruction of Alderaan. Enough said.

In The Empire Strikes Back when the Empire takes control of Bespin, people and running about, screaming for their lives. Why is that?

In Return of the Jedi we aren't really shown much of the galaxy other than Endor. This whole scene however is a metaphor for the Empire's destructive attitude vs nature.

In TPM, the Sith orchestrate an invasion on Naboo - where we are told that the inhabitants are suffering and dying. Because of the Sith.
We then go to Coruscant and we see how the senate has become corrupted by the Sith - which means a failing democracy and evil actions that don't benefit the people. Finally, we go back to Naboo were the Sith's puppets, the Trade Federation, have taken over the planet and looking to wipe out or imprison all life. Again, we are shown the destructiveness of the Sith vs nature.

In AOTC, Yoda tells us that the Dark Side clouds everything. Democracy is sliding further. Then once Palpatine takes over the Clone Wars begin - a galaxy wide conflict that will result in the death and destruction of millions, maybe billions.

In ROTS, we're shown the destructive nature of the Clone Wars. We shown how planets have been taken over by the Separatists (Utapau) and want them gone.
We then witness the fall of democracy and rise of the Empire - spelling an end to freedom and justice in the galaxy.

To suggest that the Empire doesn't cause harm to countless billions is an incredible statement. That is what these films are about - otherwise, what is the point in having heroes?

 

We are talking about a galaxy sized society here. Do you belive without the sith there was peace and happy flowers all around? Conflicts are part of a society, especially one that consits of billions of habited plantes. Werent the Separatist trying to separate from the Republic because of corruption or whatever? That wasnt caused by the sith alone... There is a dictatorship going on, a crazy guy who uses a magical power took over control, obviously some people suffer from it, some others not (especially those who support the Empire). But in a Rebulic which has a 25.000 years long history, that short 20 years of dictatorship is barely even worth mentioning. Yes one planet got destoryed and some jawas were killed. But that dosent mean every single living orgasnisms would suffer from it, causing the Force to be ,,unbalanced" whatever that even means.

 

The way I understand it is that there has been relative peace and prosperity for a thousand years.
That isn't to say there hasn't been conflict. And I wouldn't dismiss the notion that a non-Force sensitive order could unbalance the Force if they brought about enough destruction. And the Outer Rim has always remained somewhat lawless.
However, as the Jedi haven't had the Sith to fight for a millennia they have busied themselves with maintaining peace and justice in the galaxy.
This has meant that for a long time there hasn't been an event that has seriously affected the vast majority of the galaxies inhabitants.
Then the Sith begin to reemerge and things go south.
The Clone Wars. Fall of democracy. Destruction of the Jedi. Galactic Empire (oppression). This tips the scales of light and dark, good and evil firmly towards the latter.

It might be easier thinking about it this way in terms of what balance means.
Qui Gon talks about the living force. And we know there is also the cosmic force.
Now the living force is the connection between all living things. And the cosmic force is the mystical energy that these lifeforms, binded together, create.
It could be that the Force retains energy from the past. But it also most definitely is made up (mostly, in my view) of the energy being omitted by life in the here and now.
So if the lifeforms in the galaxy and the living force that they are binded by is under a great deal more darkness than it is in the light, then the comsic force that they create will be unbalanced also.
This is why the Jedi's ability to use the Force is diminished (as Mace says in AOTC or ROTS, can't remember which).

 

The ability to use the Force is diminished because Lucas needed some reason about why the jedi dont know about the clone army and the sith. So he made up this plotpoint which contradict with everything in the originals. How can one sith cloud the vision of every single jedi all around the galaxy? He didnt even take over back then, there was no Empire yet, so how did he cause every single lifeform in the galaxy to be corrputed or whatever you trying to say. And if Sidious is so strong than why cant he weaken the jedi physically?

I've watched the movies countless times, so I can assure you there is no such thing as cosmic force and living force in the films. There is only The Force (Qui-gon just refers to it as living Force, but thats the same thing). And lets say you are right and 20 years can cause ,,unbalance" so what then? Cant the jedi feel the force anymore? Does it become weaker? Do the sith become stronger? Becasue no such thing happened during the originals. The only new aspect of the Force was in TFA, where the Force is under some kind of awakening.

If there was prosperity and peace before the Sith than the prequels are even more badly written. Just look at our planet, was there peace and prosperity for even minute ever since humanity started its actions?

Im going to tell you what can cause a great unbalace: A Black hole which destoys enire galaxies or a supernova which destorys enitre solar systems. Or even Starkiller base which definitely caused some kind of unbalance. Just because there was a dictatorship for 20 years in a society which has 25.000 years old history and one single planet got destoryed (Im pretty sure only star destructions kill hundreds every single day in a galaxy) and some jawas were killed in wouldnt cause an unbalance.

 

As the Sith rise to power, the stronger the Dark Side becomes. That is established in the films.
As Dooku says in AOTC "The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision...hundred of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious".
This shows us that the Dark Side is rising and it is clouding the Jedi's vision.
Along side this, being a powerful Dark Sider he affects the Jedi around him.

"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future".
"But not at the expense of the moment - be mindful of the living force, young Padawan".

The cosmic Force - the part of the Force that the jedi and sith use isn't made weaker but the Jedi's powers are diminished. They become clouded. That is in the movies.

Well, that's our planet. And I didn't say there was absolute peace. Just that for a millennia the Jedi had kept things pretty quiet.

I think the crux of this is that you don't like what Lucas wrote.
But to me that suggests you're missing the genius of the creation of the Force.

 

So you meant that by living Force. That is the same as the Force, Qui-gon just refers to it as ,,living Force".

,,The cosmic Force - the part of the Force that the jedi and sith use isn't made weaker"
Thank you, this is what I am trying to say in all of my previous comments here. I guess you figured it out at least. And this is why there is no such thing as ,,unbalance" of the Force. The Force if constant, its always in balance.

I like Lucas's writing. What he did back then in 70s is the most brilliant and original idea Hollywood or independent film has ever given to the world.
What I dont like is post-divorce writing of Lucas (midichlorians, unbalance of the Force, prohecies). Mostly because I think all of those are completly unnecesary to the story. But hey, different people different tastes.

 

"All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the Cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now."

―The spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn, communing with Yoda


"The overriding philosophy in Episode I - and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter - is the balance between good and evil. The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not."
---GL

Well, make of that what you will...

Saying the Force isn't made "weaker" doesn't mean the balance idea doesn't exist.
The Force will always exist as you say. But the energy it consists of is finely balanced.
The Sith push that out of balance by spreading evil everywhere.
The Jedi bring it back into balance by destroying the destructive Sith.
The Force's will is the will of the collective consciousness of the galaxy.
And that collective will desires a return to the natural order of things.

You've spectacularly missed the point of the entire saga.
For you, the it's just a simple fight between Jedi and Sith where a few people picks sides and the outcome is irrelevant to the Force and galaxy as a whole.
But I look at Han's words to Finn "The galaxy is depending on you!".
This battle between good and evil involves the entire galaxy.
And when the Force is out of balance then the worst has already happened - the collective consciousness is suffering greatly.

 

I become very irritable when my midichlorians are out of balance.

 

Alright, this is my last comment about this thread so dont answer. I pretty much enjoyed this conversation, and trust me I get what you are trying to say. But all what IM trying to say is using the knowledge only from the movies there is no such things as unbalance of the Force. It was just a phrase, a metaphor used by the jedi masters. It means there is a great danger incoming. If Lucas had that idea about balance, chosen one, midichorians and all that crap, than include it in the movie. Take the scene where Jar-jar steps into poop and put a conversation about the Force in instead. Because only using what happened in the movie there is no such things as cosmic Force, living Force or unbalance of the Force. A couple lines abot that and I will accept it. But as long as it isnt in the movie its just misinterpretation.
If the Foce is in unbalance than show it in a scene! Show that the jedi struggle to use the Force, show that its acting weird, giant shadows in caves crying endlessly, show that plants arent green anymore, show anything which would refer to unbalance. Because in the orignals after the sith took over, nothing hanged about the Force. Luke, Obi-wan, Yoda everybody uses it just as they did before. The galaxy was in danger, evil forces took over, but nothing more.
And if Anakin was supposed to bring balance than why is everything still blast in epsiode VII? Starkiller base caused a lot more damage than the whole Empire. The master of Sidious (he is Plagueis im pretty sure) is still living and the jedi order could not resurrect. That is not balance for sure.

And besides, Yoda would've 100% mention that the Force was in unbalance to Luke during his training. Not just in some kind of metaphor, but directly into the padawan's face to be sure he dosent misinterpret it.

 

"[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..." - GL

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.

Just one final thing. You talk about there being no evidence of the Force being out of balance - citing the Jedi being able to use the Force as usual and things not being all that bad. So let me ask one final question: When you watch the original trilogy, did you get the feeling that the galaxy was in a good state? That its inhabitants were happy? That the Empire was loved, not feared?

Final point - everything is still blast in VII because the Dark Side has risen again - as it always will. Hence the need for Jedi.
The prophesy wasn't a prediction for all of time. It was about one moment in time. But the Force can and did go out of balance again.

As Kanata says in TFA:

REY: What fight?

MAZ: The only fight: against the dark side. Through the ages, I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them. All of us.

To me it is clear. Those that are on the side of the dark side have a tremendous impact on the galaxy as a whole. You feel that in the OT, PT and now ST.
You just know that they bring galactic sized suffering and chaos. This is the power they have. And it is this that puts the Force out of balance.

Good night and farewell.

 

I am pretty convinced @General_Tarkin is just a troll. I mean, "Please link me the scene where they show that any of lifeforms suffer (obviously except the Alderan part) in the world of SW." Really dude? You just stated the best example of a scene in which lifeforms suffer because of the Dark Side.

 

They suffer because of the military actions of their enemy, not the dark side. A galaxy has an approximated 200-400 billion stars and 100 billion planets. The destruction of a single planet dosent mean great suffering and unbalance of the energy field which surrounds the whole galaxy. Supernovas can kill entire solar systems every day during the life of galaxy, its part of their nature. One single planet clearly wont cause unbalance.

 

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced".
I am pretty sure that the destruction of Alderaan influenced the Force!

The militaristic actions of the Empire are the Dark Side.
Everything the Empire does - oppress, spreads fear, murders - that is the Dark Side. That empowers the Dark Side.
And the lifeforms across the galaxy whose energy creates the Force are impacted by this.
Even the ones who are not directly involved and impacted - "What happens to one of you affects the other, you must understand this".
The Sith are behind it. They are controlling all this. They're not destroying planets with laser beams from their eyes but that isn't the point!
Once the Sith are destroyed the Empire crumbles and the light emerges from the darkness and the Force balances out again.

 

Why do you cite those interviews again? I clearly made sure I dont care about those.
Do the people suffer? Yes, there is a dictature going on, a crazy guy got in power so obviously some will suffer. And some not. Its pretty sure not everybody hates the empire in the SW lore.
I always interpreted the unbalance of the Force as just a metaphor, not word by word as you do. The masters meant great danger by that.
So a random dude prophecised that after 1000 years something will cause a litteral unbalance of the galaxy-sized energy field they are using as a source of their powers. And another dude will end it by killing one single sith. And there will be balance for another 30 years, till the next unbalance, but there is no prophecy about that. What a piece of kakadookie. Do you know what that dude should've propehised? If there will be a kid on a desert planet with tremendious amout of midichlorian, kill it! Kill it as fast as you can and there will be no unbalance. See? Its that easy.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

"What happens to one of you affects the other, you must understand this"
This was a great example of misleading. Obi wan was talking about the gungans and the Naboo people here, he didnt say a general wisdom or something like that.
And Im pretty sure again that not everyone hated the Empire in the lore of SW. If the Separatists were trying to separate from the Republic that clearly means there were already problems before the sith.

 

You interpreted it incorrectly. It's a real imbalance - brought about the the galactic wide suffering brought about by this one Sith Lord and his Empire.
People being oppressed, living in fear, planets destroyed, countless murdered, no democracy. No freedom.
The prophesy was simple. There would be an imbalance in the Force. A Chosen One would be born and he would bring balance. That's all there is to it.
And what happens? The Sith emerge. They put the Force out of balance by spreading evil everywhere. A chosen one emerges and eventually destroys the Sith bringing an end to their Empire and restoring balance to the Force.

But now it has all gone south again. Why? Because Disney wanted to make more Star Wars movies. Is it a major problem? No. The prophesy was talking about one moment in time. Maybe there are other prophesies? But evil can and will rise again. That is why the Jedi are vital, as Tekka says, to maintain the balance in the Force.

1. Kenobi was stating a theme which is prominent throughout the Star Wars saga. Lifeforms, working together for mutual advantage. The living Force, as Lucas and Yoda and Kenobi explain, connects all living things. So when there is great suffering this impacts on the Force which impacts on others.

2. The Separatists were created by the Sith.

 

No, Kenobi meant that if there will be an invasion on the surface of the planet, it will also affect the non-terrestrial life aswell.
The dude who made the propehcy 1000 years before the actual problem had a really twisted mind then. He forgot to mention that the chosen one is actually the one who will help the sith to emerge, bring great suffering and unbalance till he actually fixes the problem he caused himself.

The Separatist wasnt ,,created" by the sith, its an alliance between banking clans and other planets who want to separate from the Rebulic. In the clone wars series there were epsiodes that clearly expressed that the Separatists arent monsters, but people who have different idea about the Repblic. And the very beginning of epsiode 3 says there are heroes on both sides.