Main Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Episode IX Thread

Is there already a Ben survies/dies wager thread?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2019 ---

The Han Solo fan in me wants his son to live.

 

Not to toot my own horn here but...

https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet.com/index.php?threads/the-ulimate-who-lives-who-dies-ix.56115/

 

But Han Solo doesn't want his son to die, he wants him to be saved. So shouldn't you want the same as a Han Solo fan? : P Killing Ben Solo would make Han's sacrifice usless and would even destroy his character arc for me.

 

If there's one thing I really want to see in TROS, even if just for a few moments, it's Supreme Leader Ren in all his glory. Having a commanding presence like his grandfather and ruling with an iron fist like Sheev. Picture this...

Crawl fades away, camera pans down to see a First Order shuttle heading towards a huge star destroyer. We cut to inside the destroyer where Hux is ordering his men to be at their best. Stormtroopers, commanders, etc. stand at attention as the shuttle arrives while Hux does as well, staring it down, sort of confident yet nervous. The door drops down and as it does, the troopers all begin to kneel as does Hux. A grand, intimidating version of Kylo Ren's theme swells as the Supreme Leader emerges from the ship and stands before his men, as cold-blooded and feared as ever.

Do it, JJ!

 

What I said was true... from a certain point of view .

Would you prefer if I stated that there was no longer a conflict? If there is Ben inside of him (like there was Anakin inside of Vader) he is not in control. He has made his choice. He only started down the path when he killed Han, we can see he is still wavering when he hesitates to kill Leia. By the time he arrives at the throne room there is no wavering. Snoke provides the narration for Ben's transformation. He is as gone as Anakin was. And I suspect only in his waning seconds before his ultimate demise does he make a come back.

Ben will die. Him surviving is the only thing that brings justice for the suffering. I mean he IS a part of the First Order, there is blood all over his hands. He has done nothing to earn the redemption (as of yet). Anyone else committing Kylo's act we would expect to pay with blood. This isn't about the suffering it's about our nostalgia. Have to at least own that. You want him to live because of who he is, but truthfully he should die because of what he's done.

Snoke's narration is the in-movie clue as to who he is now. He is Kylo, not Ben. His transformation back has not been alluded to, but also hasn't been mathematically eliminated. If Ben dies (as I suspect) he will also get redemption before he does because this franchise has a thing for "rhymes"

Ewww did Rian actually say that? Cause that is creep-tastic if he did. Yuck. She empathizes with Ben, if Rian is saying their is sexual undercurrent with empathizing with people that would disturb me more than anything else in the movie that I didn't like.

I think we can all agree that any "ships" we theorize with any characters should include the consent and desire of both characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2019 ---

You know... it wouldn't be the worst thing if they had Kylo dress in all-white like Orson Krennic stepping off the shuttle. I mean he could still wear black into battle but the white could symbolize his belief that HE is the good guy (even though he isn't). Plus it would just look good optically to change up the gear. There's also merch that you could potentially sell with the new look.

 

so...you believe Snoke's assessment of Ren Ben over Luke's? really? why?

 

Remind me again what was Luke's assessment of Ben?

 

"no one's ever really gone."
told to Leia specifically so that she would not despair for Ben.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on what's possible in the future, then.

 

sorry, i meant to address these points as well.

1. those who are working to "earn" redemption have won it already. of course he's doing nothing to earn redemption. that's not how redemption works.
2. when you say "we would expect", you're talking about yourself and people who agree with you. you're clearly not talking about me or the people who agree with me. : D
   
3. it's not about nostalgia for me. it's about what is right and good. vengeance solves nothing. blood for blood as a measure of justice is a worldview i don't personally subscribe to. i believe human beings can be better than this.

 

It’s just subtext. Nothing to get scandalised about.

As for Kylo’s redemption or lack of, it can go both ways. That’s what’s good about this trilogy. We just don’t know.

You may be right, Kylo may end up evil and beyond hope, that hope KK said TROS was all about... It could happen, but for it to be convincing Kylo would have to be dehumanised to such an extent that the complex conflicted character we once knew would have to turn into this generic villain that everyone, even his mother, wishes dead.

If we want to maintain Kylo a rich character in a story with a hopeful ending, we have to give him a proper arc: either a redemption with death (or without), or a non-redemption and his survival, so that there is hope for redemption in the future.

 

Is everyone's sacrifice for Vader in vain too? He died and he DESERVED IT. Han 's sacrifice was ultimately so his son can cos play himself to the dark side and he was still conflicted. At least Vader had the nuts to be all in after he slaughtered the younglings. Feel how you want to feel Kylo needs to get it IMO. I don't think he is written as a sympathetic character. He is interesting and his inverse of Luke arc is interesting but feel bad for him I do not. I'd probably like him more if he ends up doubling down on the darkside (he won't not with Palps return) so I'll settle for self sacrifice in a return to the light.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2019, Original Post Date: May 1, 2019 ---

Thought that was a reference to Han... I need to rewatch that scene

 

If it was meant to be taken literally though then accordingly Kylo's never really gone either, correct?

1. Have they now? Can't say I agree here as I can readily think of a number of scenarios where it wouldn't hold true.
2. I came very close to invoking Godwin's law here; but I pulled back just in time. Instead I'll ask: Do we really want to split "ethics" hairs here and suggest that committing atrocities as part of an autocratic military dictatorship just depends on your point of view? Is there any scenario where these are the good guys and their acts go unpunished?
3. I see, so the families of those who were killed at Kylo's direction on Jakku, what justice would you offer them? You would arrest Kylo perhaps? Send him to jail... or wait, if he is working towards redemption he already has it, so he doesn't need to go to jail... is that how it would work?

We can agree that anything is possible. As for what will be, I'll hang my hat on the information and prlogue that's available right now. I don't think there's a credible case to be made for Reylo based on the available information; if TROS adds new information and changes that, so be it.

"Reading the tea leaves" that are currently available, I'd think that he receives a redemption just before dying. Taking Snoke off the playing field has consequences and one of those is there doesn't appear to be any existing "Big Bads" for Kylo to turn against (unless you believe Palpatine really is coming back). And I think what's getting lost here is that empathizing with Kylo doesn't mean we have to exhonerate him. We understand how he came to be corrupted, and we also understand he has blood on his hands by actions he freely chose. There is nothing dehumanizing in recognizing there are consequences to his actions; it is a dynamic experienced by everyone.

It is unlikely that he survives (IMO) based on this being explicitly called the end of the Skywalker saga. It is also unlikely (IMO) that if he dies, he does so without a redemptive act. Not exactly like Vader, but an act that saves other that costs his life. Pure speculation on my part. The redemption that many seem to want him to have is not in alignment with his actions. It's going to have to come from within TROS. Because the first 2/3 of the trilogy gives us a frame work to:

1. Understand him
2. To recognize there will be price attached to his atonement

From cutting down LST, to ordering the slaughter on Jakku, to killing Han, to his attack on the Raddus ship bay, we are seeing Kylo

 

This is indeed possible, but I just cannot attach to this the “hope” I usually attach to the franchise and KK was talking about.., But that’s just my reading of things. I could be wrong.

Not necessarily. End doesn’t have to mean death and I don’t think it means death in this case. It could mean the end of Anakin Skywalker’s story, his rise, fall, redemption and legacy (by which i mean Vader’s influence on Kylo and his darkness). I could be wrong in this too.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2019, Original Post Date: May 1, 2019 ---

I disagree. “Understanding him” could be read as part of a redemption process. You’re not making a distinction between Kylo’s “evil” actions with the other actions of his character, which are specifically designed for us to “understand” him: Actions that show him display insecurity of purpose, anger, fear, surprise, empathy, hurt, resentment, there are many of those in the course of TFA and TLJ. I think Kylo’s character has been, and not very subtly, designed to comment on the nature of evil. The hope of resolving this evil is perhaps the most enlightening message this trilogy could give us.

 

I was thinking today on what Obi-Wan told Luke about his father.

The quote is this:

Luke: “How did my father die?”
Ben Kenobi: “A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.”

He then said later on:

Ben Kenobi: "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.

So, the same seems to apply directly now for Kylo Ren to have betrayed and murdered Ben Solo, not literally but figuratively, and "when that happened, the good man (...) was destroyed".

I was struck for how much of a parallel there is with Kylo and his grandfather in the light of this piece of dialog from the OT. So, I guess "The Rise of Skywalker" could indeed be about "Skywalker rises from the dead", from a certain point of view. Just thought of sharing this thought

 

No. Responsibilities as well as merits are personal. You cannot inherit them.
A son is not responsable for his father sins/crimes, a son doesn't deserve any forgiveness, any pass, because of his father's merits.
He has to earn them in own terms.
And that would make his father proud and perhaps us (or at least me) willing to forgive (but never forget).
As long as things stay as they are, I do consider Kylo a disgrace for his family.
And I am sad for Han, Leia and Luke because they deserved a better son/nephew.
And not: I do not consider them responsable of Kyo's own choices and downfall.
Not even Luke.
Like I said, Luke's "moment of weakness" may justify a seek of revenge if not justice.
But I will never consider that enough to even remotely "comprend" Kyle's decision to join a space neo nazi regime.
To accept genocide.
To become a mass murderer.
To kill his own father.

As I do not comprend Hitler who - without a doubt - had a childhood of abuse.

And if we want to address the issue of (alleged) "brain-washing"... then...
We have a character who's surely been brain washed, after being kidnapped as a child.
Finn.
A 20 something guy (not a man of 30) who decided (to quote his own words) in first mission to not kill for those people.
And broke himself free.

Meaning that free will in this space opera existes, no matter the odds and for Kylo Ren too.

And what are those actions?

1- he didn't treat Rey any different than how he treated Poe during the interrogation.
Poe wasn't beaten by Kylo. He was beaten before, by other people.
And just because torture didn't make him confess, enters Kylo.
And the only thing that Kylo does to Poe... is reading his mind.
So if Kylo treated Rey differtly than how he treated Poe, he did that in bad way (afterwards).

In addition, is not that one "must" take the scene of him taking off the mask as a kind gesture.
I take it, as something else especially if compared to what he did with Poe.
Poe mocked the mask.
So the coolest thing Kylo could have done (as an exibition of power, selfconfidence) was to ignore the mockering.
Rey - on the other hand - calls him a monster in a mask, so the coolest thing he can do is to show his not monster-face.
That is not "kind". That he's him trying to make her question her words, actions and choices.

Because not (for instance): it doesn't matter that she shot first.
Why she should haven't done that?
There's a raid on Takodana.
A "terrorist attack" that follows the "terrorist attack" vs the capital planet and other systems.
Kylo Ren is leading this raid/terrorist attack.
And Rey has the damn right to defende herself, BB8 and his mission, arms
in hands and without any esitation that may cost her life (and potentially those of millions of people).

Kylo's words on the matter, doesn't prove that he has a point.
They prove that he's a master of manipulation.
And that's not kind.

2- when he asks for Han's help, is he asking his father to save him from Snoke or is he asking "Han's permission" to kill him?
The scene is ambiguous to say the least.

3- Same with all his arc in TLJ.
It's up to each and everyone of us, to read his motives. There's nothing in the movie that proves once and for all
that what he's really seeking is freedom form Snoke and the Dark Side.

Yes Snoke mockes, provocks him. He's probably afraid that Snoke is about to get rid of him (especially because
Snoke is intrested now in Rey).
Bout, does Kylo destroy his mask, because he wants to become a good guy or because he doesn't want to look a Vader's wannabe anymore?
Because he wants to prove that he is truly worthy of his grandfather - Lord Vader, not Anakin - legacy?
That is not young Solo, but Vader's grandchild?

What does he do next?

He chaces his mother ship and he doesn't shot her, sure.
But there's no sign that he cares once Leia's ship blows up.
Does he care? Sure, perhaps he knows that his mother surived... but she surely is not fine.
We see Poe holding her hand, we see Luke reaching out to her sister.
We don't see Kylo doing any of that.
Why? What's the purpose - storywise - of this omission?

But...

4- he force-skypes with Rey. And what is his purpose? His real purpose?
Does he want help to be set free?
Or does he want someone to help him getting rid of Snoke... because Snoke is an obstacle in his rise?
And does he want that at any cost? Manipulation includeed?
That not because he lied about Rey's parents. He didn't.

But because his version of the story about Luke's "moment of weakness" comes as a reply
to a question that has nothing to do with Luke.
The question was "why did you kill your father?"

And whatever happened between him and Luke doesn't explain what he did to Han.
At all.
So you may take that as the prove that he's willingly to share his pain with someone else
because he's a poor, tormented guy (or 30 something), I can take it as... manipulation.

As him... avoiding to answer the question (why did you kill your father?), distracting Rey's attention from the point
she was trying to make by focusing on something else and gaining symphaty in the process.
And that's... manipulation.

Why? Because he knew he needed someone else help to survive an attempt of murdering Snoke?
What is the purpose of the scene of him staring at the pretorian guards when he tries to react to Snoke
in the first throne room scene?
Let us understand - in retrospect - that he knew he had 0 chances to survive if alone?

And given everything that happens after Snoke's murder, are we really sure that what he wants is not
power? That power? Leading the FO on his own, achiving what Veder never achived?


Both reads are legit. This has to be clear, imo.
We can debate our preferences.
But there's not a clear, unilateral direction.. in terms of narrative so far.
None of us can say "he's set up one way or another".

No one can say "his arc so far is that of someone who's trying to free/redeem himself" or a redemption arc or vice versa.
In short: it may be or his may be the arc of someone who's trying to become far more evil.

Ep. IX will give us the answer.

But the set up until now is ambivalent on purpose.
I personally don't like it because of that.
Because I prefer less ambigous (not less nuanced, those are two separate concepts) narrative structures.
But just because it is so ambivalent - on purpose - JJ can do whatever he wants without wasting or not honoring
TLJ.
Kylo's arc in IX can be that of someone rising to the light as well as that of someone rising to dark side of the spectrum.
That regardless his redemption, that can always happen, even in a last minute plot twist.

 

I see some of these actions in TFA differently from you, and I would not necessarily include others that you mention above in what I consider "sympathetic" character actions that prevent us, the audience to see Kylo as a completely unsympathetic villain. This portrayal of Kylo in TFA was indeed very intentional. I see that you and others have either not fallen for these, perhaps, "manipulative traps" JJ and Kasdan placed there to make Kylo redemption material, or have not noticed them in the first place... Both possibilities are fair enough.

Kylo from the beginning is shown confronting the light. We see him turning towards Finn in the village, sensing in him no doubt "the light" and in spite of it, he moves away and does not react/ attack/kill him... It was an interesting "inaction" considering he had just cut poor LST in half and ordered to "kill them all"... Adam Driver does all this acting with the mask on, but you have a sense from the start there is something different about this villain, a suspicion that is confirmed later when he is sitting in front of his grandfather's mask saying he feels the "call to the light". Afterwards, we see Kylo's raging fits which inform us of his immaturity, and witness his conversations with Snoke, where we instantly realise Kylo is being manipulated and has become an accessory to evil. Kylo's sporadic incompetence in his handle of the force is also very significant... He is not as tough as he seems. And let's not forget that during Kylo's interaction with Hux we find ourselves siding with Kylo... because he has the force and spirituality (although the wrong side of it), both absent in the warmongering and puny Hux. All these elements are not coincidental. Our sympathy for Kylo does not stem solely from the fact that he is the son of our OT heroes, but from all these "character actions" sparkled all over the film. And on top of this Kylo has the aesthetic and stock mannerisms of gothic romantic heroes, kidnapping Rey and carriying her in his arms to his ship, while displaying some degree of righteousness and victimhood: "you mean the murderers, traitors and thieve you call your friends?". He sounds more like a guy who is trying to justify his evil actions more than a generic evil guy. Kylo is the kind of villain who we can not easily commit to hate... Well, at least not me... not even after killing his own father. I just felt pity. I wondered: how is this guy ever going to forgive himself for doing that?

 

@Kylocity
About the Finn moment...
Maybe in that specific moment Kylo was far more interested in the map to Luke than he was interested in Finn.
Same mistake he’ll make on Crait. He’s so focused on his.. hate towards Luke that he misses opportunities
Maybe he’s so focused on his true goal that he just doesn’t care about anything else.
He doesn’t care about the villagers and the easiest solution is to kill them all to not waste any time.
And he does care about a stormtrooper.

Finn is irrelevant in the great scheme of things - as far as Kylo is concerned - in that specific moment.
Whatever he felt, there was 0 reason to do something right there and then.
To not delegate the problem/issue to someone else later on.
Or to not use whatever Finn was about to do... to prove that Hux’s stormtroopers are worth nothing.
Remember their conversations later on?
What if was scheming?
It’s not necessarily sympathy... or humanity. Seconds after having ordered the wipe out of an entire village of people.

As for being “tempted by the light” again... the line is ambiguous enough to let us think whatever we want
(and maybe to let us buy at least - a bit - later on that he may actually want to be good, so that we can buy for a moment that he’s about to leave with Han. Without ambiguity the twist doesn’t work).
There would be not drama there.

However you can surely take it that way, however in that scene the point is that Kylo considers that pull to the light a problem. If fact he asks his grandfather to show him the power of the dark side.
He doesn’t try to reach his mother to gain some help....
Etc...

But... there’s enough subtext to justify his redemption?
If there was with Vader, and that prior the ST, there is always.
But a nuanced villain is not by definition a villain set up for a redemption arc.
Thanos is nuanced... but still...

And the point I was trying to make is that the movies we’ve seen are far less clear cut, far less
oriented in a sense or the other than many of us are willing to acknowledge.

 

what happens to Ben and how those affected by his previous actions deal with him.. have nothing at all to do with his redemption.

I don't remember seeing the families of the jedi younglins killed during order 66 on Death Star 2 approving of Anakins redemption. Everyone seemed to accept Anakin jumping the good ship dark side purely because he didn't survive... that's right isn't it?
I've never once on this forum seen someone saying that Anakin didn't deserve to be redeemed because of the things he'd done.. he did far worse to far more over decades. that's because redemption isn't something one deserves.. it's a choice.. a path, and it's there for every single one of us.

forgiveness, acceptance, justice, vengeance etc.. these are all separate to redemption. Ben has the choice of turning away from the dark side today, tomorrow and for the whole rest of his life. If he does manage to do that.. he is redeemed. each person that Ben then comes into contact with after that has their own choice to make.. forgive him, accept him, put him on trial, murder him etc.

Anakin was redeemed because he turned away from the dark side of the force. had he lived.. the galaxy would have had some difficult decisions to make.

think of the worst serial killer you've ever heard of in real life.. that person can be redeemed. they can choose to stop their murderous ways and be a beacon of light to all humanity. that's a choice they always have regardless of what they have done. it's up to everyone else to decide on acceptance, forgiveness, justice etc etc.

I want Ben's redemption very much. I want it for Han.. i want it for Leia and most especially i want it for Ben. my biggest worry isn't whether or not everyone else accepts him.. i worry that he won't be able to live with the things he has done, most notably murdering his own father.