Main Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Episode IX Thread

We're all speculating so we all could be wrong. I will say however my perception of how much thematic "hope" is being wagered on Kylo's arc in this thread feels problematic. He is not the sole or principal vehicle for hope here (to let me tell it). Since we obviously don't know TROS script there is the chance that the story it tells provides Kylo an opportunity to change his current trajectory (even at the last second). If he has a "Vader-throws-Sidious-Down-The-Power-Shaft" moment so be it. But the calls for his redemption based on his body of work right now, are in stark contrast to his actions and (to me) stem from emotional attachment to who he is and the cost of ignoring what he's done. Redemption does not belong to the unrepentant

It's not impossible, but again I'm considering what I think is most likely. As long as Kylo/Ben lives, the Skywalker saga continues on. The alternative seems to call for Ben living, leaving the Force continuum, and effectively becoming a non-factor in the GFFA going forward. It's possible but how likely do we think that is? That he ends the Skywalker Saga by "retiring"? A redemption before death is the most likely route that allows the franchise to give the fans "Ben" back, and at the same time fulfills their promise to end the Skywalker Saga (and again, FTR, I think ending the Skywalker Saga is a mistake, there's enough galaxy that you can tell other stories without Skywalkers, not sure why you need to end them in this one, but that appears to be the way they're going)

If understanding him is read as part of the redemption process then I would argue it's proof that people are putting "the cart before the horse". They're asserting redemption is warranted before Kylo has taken any action to justify its consideration (including a belief that he has done anything wrong). Now ultimately, you may be right that the character was designed to comment on the nature of evil. But what I think it's also demonstrating (even if unintentionally) is the variability (and therefore the fallibility) of our judgement of evil. We are far more generous (in critique and praise) to people with whom we identify than those with whom we don't.

We know that Kylo is angry, afraid, insecure, hurt, and resentful, we see it. We also see people suffer and die because of it. But the conversation in this forum seems to imply that being Han's son should outweigh justice and that he should be absolved of the consequences of his actions even though others bear the fallout of his action forever.

 

I accept that Kylo may not be redeemed. I'm not familiar with Thanos, but I know of nuanced villainous characters like Dorian Grey, Heathcliff and Anna Karenina. They are all complicated and have tragic endings, victims of their own corruption. I'm aware that Kylo may decide taking more decisive steps towards the wrong path in TROS and have a tragic ending as a cautionary tale. It could be done. I just fail to see the hopeful message in that... It just feels too 19th century and depressing... Unless, of course, Kylo is turned by design into someone truly cruel. In that case, we will all be happy to see him go.

--- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2019, Original Post Date: May 1, 2019 ---

No, It is not that redemption is warranted, but rather that the narrative of this story has set the ground for the redemption of Kylo. This is not a matter of principle or even opinion. Of course, it could all be dismantled in TROS, but there is no denying that the groundwork for redemption is there.

 

Could not disagree more. We have been using repentance and redemption interchangeably on this site for awhile (including me) but today I will at least start making the distinction. His repentance is independent of those he has harmed, his redemption is not.

You don't remember seeing the families of the Jedi Younglins killed during Order 66 approving of Anakin's redemption because he has no time left to be judged either way. He dies shortly after he breaks from the Emperor.

You also never once on this forum saw anyone suggest that Anakin should avoid any consequences from his actions because he is Shmi's son. No one left ESB when it premiered saying, "clearly the trilogy has set up a redemption arc for Darth Vader". Redemption is something one earns, repentance is a choice.
If Ben turns away from everything he has done, he is repentant, he is not redeemed.

A serial killer could repent his ways, but would you release him from jail immediately because he did? Would you immediately give him a place on your school board, or a position at a hospital, or be allowed to work around those who he harmed before because he has ceased his ways? Or does he earn the redemption? Does that person earn trust and eventually a place back in society?

 

According to this logic, Vader was never redeemed, right?
I think we are confusing the issue here. We are talking about Vader and Kylo in the world and in society and that's not the way redemption works in a story. It is the audience who forgives the villain, experiencing it all through the eyes of a sympathetic character, not the victims of the villain's atrocities within the story, or the whole society within a story... I certainly wouldn't give Vader a teaching job post killing the emperor or let Kylo go near my daughter after his possible redemption in TROS. Equating real life with a legend or a tale is not appropriate or helpful in this discussion.

 

Who is suggesting he turns away from everything he has done? I’m not.. I’m hoping he turns away from the dark side of the force like his grandfather did.

Does Ben have to earn a shot at redemption? did Anakin?

It’s perfectly ok for us to disagree with our interpretation of the word ‘redemption’ in a fantasy story bro, so please don’t think that I am trying to change your opinion.. I’m merely explaining mine

@Kylocity is right that comparing this stuff to real life isn’t helpful, but I do need to answer this..
In your example the person has already been judged by society - they are in jail already.

If Ben decides to turn away from the dark side like his grandfather did, then he is redeemed - we have a canon precedence for that. Ben can decide to stop being a bad person anytime he likes.. the same as all of us. Nobody has to forgive him.. the resistance can decide to kill him for his crimes.

how does one earn redemption @Rayjefury ? that’s not supposed to be argumentative bro.. in your eyes what does Ben need to do to earn redemption?

 

i think it could be taken to mean both, but especially Ben.
and, maybe more importantly, the way in which Han can/will live on in Ben, perhaps.

the way i see it, Kylo Ren is a false construct (a mask, a shield, a lie).
Ben Solo is the real person.

i think @Maximus pretty much summed up my thoughts on this already, so i won't beat the dead horse. i appreciate that you and i fundamentally disagree on (for lack of a better expression) what it means to fulfill righteousness in a case like Ben Solo. and that's all good. it's part of the balance. : D

 

I disagree that it isn't helpful, because I believe what you are starting as your premise (high lighted above) is not tenable. Skipping over my contention (which I do not relinquish) that you are looking to forgive him while he is still knee deep in evil, I (and people who share my view) are part of the audience too. I'm watching Kylo through Rey's eyes and I don't forgive him. Nor, would I argue, has anyone made the case that I should be predisposed to do so other than they would like a happy ending for Han's child. I believe the failure to look through the eyes of the victims of the villains atrocities is the failure to see the victims and the atrocities at all. I don't think poetic license in creating a story gives us leave to avoid wrestling with the moral implications (in part because they do parallel real life). If we have the bandwidth to have Rose lecture Finn on the victims of war profiteering and literally show the suffering to punctuate the point, it doesn't stand to reason IMO to argue we can't look at the victims of Kylo's actions or consult with the damage he has done to make an assessment on whether he should be forgiven.

No I understand, but on my end I realized I needed to better calibrate my words, and not use redemption and repentance interchangeably. I think that you all are referring to repentance when you talk about redemption, but I'm not sure I've made the case such that you agree.

Let me ask you this, if Vader doesn't throw Sidious down the power shaft, how would you know he has decided to turn away? Part of redemption (I would argue) is restoration. It is more a process than it is a decision. Truth is Vader doesn't have much time to do much of anything once Anakin is restored. He does however rid the galaxy of Sidious at the cost of his own life. Arguably, the Empire could better afford to lose another DS than they could the emperor. Anakin's blow to the empire is the fatal one, both to himself and the empire. Arguably that is restorative. If Kylo makes a similar sacrifice there is at least some foundation for saying he was both repentant and restorative. Being Han's kid is the basis for Han and Leia forgiving him. He's entitled to it from no one else. That's my view.

 

all of these words 'muddy' the water as far as i'm concerned, but we have to use the word redemption.. as it's the canonical term that GL used to describe what happened to Anakin. Some think that it fits perfectly.. as it can be used to describe saving yourself or saving another from evil in some way, but many see it as a form of forgiveness.. being let off of one's crimes.

I see the dark side as the black hole-like evil boss.. sucking in the silly morons that fly nearby. I want to save Ben from that.. he hasn't gone all the way yet, and he has said himself that he can still feel a pull to the light.

it has nothing to do with the crimes he has committed.. i simply want to pull him back from the darkness.
what kind of man he is after that, and what society decide to do with him.. well that's for him and everyone else to decide.

we're swaying into an area that i've challenged before - about the throne room stuff from ROTJ. i've frequently played with the idea that Vader didn't save his son, and instead was waiting for the opportunity to kill his master like all sith do to become numero uno. it's difficult to know what goes on inside a person's head.. more so when they are wearing a mask, but sticking to canon.. at the end he pulled away from the dark side.

you've entered into forgiveness territory again, and for me.. it's not about that. If he pulls away from the dark side, then whether or not i decide to forgive him will depend upon his actions and my personal courage. it takes enormous courage to forgive someone.. even from Leia. i don't see forgiveness as something anyone is entitled to.. but it is a heroic gift we can all give if we choose to.

that stuff is 10 miles down the road.. i just want the kid away from the darkness. let's see how the chips fall after that.

 

I have read all the novels you’re talking about.
First hand/eyes.
Amd sometimes I wonder if people that wrote meta and/or compare Kylo to those characters have ever done the same.
I am glad that at least you know how they ends, what these novels are really about.
I am serious.
However we disagree - like I said - because I don’t think the narrative of the ST is structured to end with Kylo’s redemption and/or survival. I think it’s structured on purpose so that they can do whatever they want in Ep. IX.
These pages or the debate in the thread proves enough that his arc is absolutely debatable.
Open.
That there’s not a trajectory taken once and for all.

And... if all the characters you’ve spoke of, don’t get an happy ending, there are structural narratives reasons...
But in SW redemption is always a chance.
Until the last second.
The point however is that one should still pay for his own sins/mistakes.
And it’s highly unlikely that he won’t... imo.
How is another question.

 

Kallus "paid" for his considerable crimes with a more than somewhat happy ending.
there's really no proscription for redemption arcs.

 

Kallus’s arc is more similar to that of Finn.
Even if there are differences.
But he was a soldier rinsed as many other of his generation under the Empire Regime.
Perhaps someone who never knew what democracy was.
Or was too little to remember.
Or to understand what really happened during the clones wars.
Pretty much like... Han Solo. That was a cadet of Empire too at some po8nt of his life.
Because that was life in those years, unless you have the awareness and the courage to
make another difficult choice.
However, once he understands that the Empire is evil, he takes another path and he’s one of those
who build the rebellion.

He’s not a young man born free.
Under the Republic, under democracy .
That choose the fascists, not because he doesn’t know that there is an alternative
but because he refuses/fights that better alternative.
And Kalisz never took the place of the supreme leader of the space nazi, or killed his father ...

This is his arc. Linear. Not even a proper redemption arc, but that of someone who gains
awareness and makes a choice.
Still the contrary of that of Kylo Ren so far.

 

we've been repeatedly told (by the directors, by Adam Driver) that Ben Solo doesn't understand that he's the villain. where he was born and how he was raised doesn't predetermine his moral capacity or lack thereof (see also: Finn, as you just said).

of course it's all up to interpretation, but this perspective makes some big leaps about Ben Solo's moral self-awareness that for me aren't the least bit supported in the film. but mostly my point was that there's no formula for redemption; any one case can be different or similar to any other.

 

But it does give him a framework which he can reject or embrace. And in any event, Kylo isn't an instance in which we need to question if he lacks moral capacity. We have seen him register doubt and hurt over some of his own decisions, on screen. He knows right from wrong.

 

he struggles with what Luke struggled as he stood over his nephew while he slept and considered ending him.
Ben's pursuing what he perceives as a greater good, and everything he has to destroy in his way is a necessary sacrifice.
knowing right from wrong is only one part of what's going on in his turmoil.

i don't defend that, really, i'm just saying it's not black and white to him as it is to others.

 

You're watching Kylo through Rey's eyes, you say, and you don't forgive him? Of course you don't. Neither do I, not yet. The story is not telling me yet to do so, but there are things pulling me in that direction, that's all I am saying. Kylo may be Han and Leia's son, but the story still needs to give him an opportunity to act selflessly and morally and earn our forgiveness (The story may also give him an opportunity to explain his sickly "attachment" to evil. Let's wait and see.)

I just find this nifty gritty about who is worthy of forgiveness in the real world and who is not rather beside the point when talking about a made up story which does not necessarily follow the rules of the real world as we normally experience it. These stories present epic dilemas and gestures and over the top situations. You are even using the word “parallel” when comparing these stories with real life, not the word “reflect”. That is an important distinction. What these stories are doing is presenting the world in exaggerated terms, like in mythology and in the Old Testament. One thing is to relate (or not relate with a character’s dilemma). Another very different is to judge them outside their context.

I suppose it all depends in the scope of these comparisons... or if they are substantiated or not. I have often said that Kylo displays many elements of the Byronic heroes of the 19th century. Is he one of them? Of course, he is not. It is simply a pose, a look, a point of reference... which somehow informs how I, as an audience member, have received him as character.

I agree with you on that. I have never really thought there was a path laid out for the ST characters and their story. As far as I can see, they wanted to follow the footsteps of the OT and have three films connected but at the same time independent and distinct from each other. The ST has been a work in progress. Probably still is, as I'd say they are still changing TROS in the editing room.

By mentioning Karenina, Dorian Grey and Heathcliff I was confirming your point that nuanced villains don't always have redemptive arcs. I was not comparing the relevance of these characters within the narratives and themes of their respective stories to those of Kylo's in the ST. Kylo Ren will have the arc that better suits the message, themes and story in TROS, a film that will be independent, to some extent, from TFA and TLJ. Kylo could very well die unredeemed. I wouldn't consider this ending in any way hopeful, as KK claimed it would be, but alas... My main point here is that the groundwork for Kylo's redemption arc has been done. I understand you have not been convinced by JJ's, Kasdan's and RJ's efforts to give Kylo certain degree of pathos (You have seen nuance, but not pathos). I also see you're not alone in thinking that.

 

Have to disagree with you (I know I know, I'm doing that a lot LOL). Ben isn't wrestling with the greater good , he's looking for his "place" in all this also like Rey (I was actually expecting you to bring this up). It is a much more destructive and morally indefensible path, but that's kind of the point, seeing the contrast. Both Rey and Kylo struggle with lies about their families (Kylo's being that he was abandoned, and Rey's being that she wasn't). I think in some regards it would have been useful (if we were going to flash back) to show Kylo performing Force acts without training also so that it hammered home the point that they are polar opposites but reflections (and it would have taken some of the criticism off of Rey's unexplained abilities)

 

but what is Ben's place? he's thinks it's to rule the galaxy and bring order. he believes in a higher calling.

you're right, Rey and Ben are polarities, but also dualities.
ultimately they aren't that different. they actually want the same exact thing:
peace and purpose.

they just haven't figured that out yet.

we're the ones who are spackling morality over it all (as i said, Ben senses what he's doing is wrong, but he doesn't know it yet, he's figuring it out; that's his struggle).
and he'll either get it right in ix, or he'll die in the Dark, which again, i personally don't see as a "satisfying" conclusion the tale of our OT heroes. if that's how it's going to go down, maybe Luke should have just killed him on Ahch-To. do you really think that's the message this tale wants us to walk away with?

 

You know... I think the OT was probably neutral (all things considered) but the PT and definitely the OT have invited us (I believe) to engage the ethics. The PT is the first time we have to examine the Jedi philosophy and see its flaws as well and we see that the Old Ben who seemed wise and kind, was more than a bit of a d!ck to Anakin as his Master. There are times when it does have the feel of a GFFA where we aren't supposed to superimpose our current cultural outlook to theirs (i.e. Watto and his slaves and the Qui Gon's seeming indifference to it) but Padme's "this is how Democracy dies, with thunderous applause" is not only an invitation to apply current ethics, it's the franchise itself diving in. And the ST is chocked to the gills with more overt platforms serving as a lens for our own society (which many people objected to prior to even TLJ). Even Kylo, I think is meant to make us ask these questions. Rian wanted us to empathize with Kylo and shifted the focus off of his victims but then shows the children slaves as victims and asking us to make a value judgement against war profiteers. Can't have it both ways.

I don't think Luke should have just killed Kylo, but I also don't think that Kylo is the principal vehicle for the messaging of this trilogy. I don't think the messaging is contingent principally on how he's handled. I think he'll get quote-unquote "redemption" (really repentance) because it will close the circle. But I also think he is going to die (largely because LFL has put this emphasis on ending the Skywalker saga) and because he has earned it. Snoke, Sidious, Dookou, Maul, Vader... they all had it coming. I don't think there's an exception waiting in the wings for Kylo. His road to "redemption" likely begins with an act that ensures his death but saves others. I don't think anyone will have a problem that secondary message.

 

I think we are supposed to understand that Kylo is “under the spell” of the dark side, as he has commited to its dogma, been manipulated and indoctrinated. Scenes of Snoke between Snoke and Kylo, particularly in TFA, show that. Kylo’s confusion and moral qualms are there to show us that Kylo, although committed, is finding it hard to be a dark side lord. We are supposed to believe the power of the dark side is extreme and all consuming (Yoda warned us, remember?). For Kylo to reject the dark side at this stage is probably psychologically comparable to swimming against the current... a feat of strength and most likely a life sentence.

This is where the moral comparisons between SW and the real world are not helpful.

 

The events and dilemas in the SW universe for me are exactly like those in our world but “on acid”. By that I mean they are exaggerated and inflated to incredible proportions, as in all fantastical stories. I don’t have any problem with the morally “grey” in SW, much less in the political plot. Commenting on the unstable foundation of democracy is indeed very welcome, even if it is done via a ridiculously wealthy queen who sejours in a ridiculously gorgeous palace located in the richest planet in the galaxy... and who also happens to wear all sorts of preposterous paraphernalia to display her privilege... It is laughable, yes, but still, we get the message... In the real world most of us would call Amidala a hypocrite, a detached mouthpiece of the privileged class. In SW however she is some sort of heroine.

With the light and dark side of the force the morality gets even more slippery and confusing... The Jedi seem to be more like saints than anything else and the Dark side lords, a range of power “crack addicts”... The distance between good and bad is enormous. The only way for us of connecting to these characters is by spotting in them the slightest glimpse of humanity. That’s why We feel so much empathy for Luke, Rey and Kylo.