Main Kylo Ren/Adam Driver Episode IX Thread

With that logic everything would be unoriginal and lazy, because everything was already told before in other movies, books, games etc.

I doubt that. He was confused by his rage and couldn't think clearly. He was like a kid. "If I don't get what I want, then no one shall get it!" starting to destroy everything.

 

I raised my point. The apples ate the oranges.

 

I wasn’t talking about you. These thread has contributions from more than ten members.

 

1. No I’m fine with story beats that are similar because the hero’s journey is formulaic, but if this trilogy ends with the exact same conclusion as ROTJ, then its unoriginal and pointless to me. Why tell the story of Anakins grandson if he does the same thing as Anakin? Why tell the story of Rey if she ends up in the same place as Luke? The PT story was vastly different from the OT story. While execution you could argue was flawed, nobody complained that it was unoriginal. Some of the best stories in canon have been born from the PT universe. I believe this trilogy will be forgotten by moviegoers very quickly if it ends the same way as ROTJ, with Rey having to start Jedi and Kylo redeemed saving her to destroy Palpatine.

2. You’ve ignored how the dark side works apparently.

 

No, I actually was very close to George's explanation of the dark side:

 

Not relevant.I’m going by what I’m seeing/hearing in the films.

By the way, Rian Johnson completely ignores George’s version of balance, which is harmony. Not “powerful light, powerful darkness”. So you can dig up interviews and all that but none of it matters. Kylo is a bipolar mess. He rages like a child, but eventually those fits of rage will turn into constant anger, which is where I believe we will see him at the start of TROS.

 

Well, I see exactly this in the movies. So, yada yada.

I agree with you hrere, though. I also see Kylo being pretty much into the dark side at the beginning of TROS.

 

To me, this is the physical description of what "powerful light, powerful darkness" looks like. At :26 seconds they're separated in such a way that makes it look like a balance scale. It obviously breaks metaphorically and literally. They had to much weight this time, but TROS will achieve balance and not 'break'. In essence, I don't think it breaks George's vision of balance.

 

I’m not sure if this will be the ending, but why will the ST become instantly forgettable if it is so? Will the character of Kylo not be memorable? His arc is very original in the context of the saga... A dark side user starting his story by being tempted by the light has not been seen before in these films... Also a dark side user building a “camaraderie” in the course of a film with the hero/light side user is also completely new. And what about Finn’s story? What stormtrooper in the other two trilogies has had an identity crisis? And Luke’s story? Where in the OT or PT we see a mentor who has lost faith in his influence onto others?

The ST has brought a lot of new ideas to the table. Having a redemption ending and the “villain” saving the hero in TROS will not invalidate it.

 

I’m not a force scholar, but the way I see it, balance means being at peace with your choices. Darth Vader before Luke came into the equation was balanced. Luke in ROTJ was balanced. Rey is balanced. Kylo is not balanced. For me it is not light and dark balancing each other out... It’s about belief and accountability.

We must not forget that when we got introduced to Kylo he was dressing and acting like a dark side lord but he wasn’t one yet. He wanted to become one and was trying to destroy his identity in the process. But his tactic of cutting links with the past is not working and he knows it... I don’t see any belief and accountability in his choices, only fear and anger.

 

Whoa. Kylo Ren had two choices in the Throne Room. It was either kill Rey like Snoke wanted him to or else kill Snoke to save Rey. I meant the selfish part came from the fact that he loves Rey. You can argue Reylo isn't a thing until you're blue in the face, but what you're really arguing is that it's one-sided. Tell me a reason to not hate the person who bested/humiliated you and split half your body open... and there it is. She may not feel the same way (or doesn't yet), but.

I have eyes and a mind.

 

Kylo deliberately put Rey in a position of helplessness with Snoke.
Kylo would not have been able to kill Snoke without Rey being in the room.
Kylo would not have been able to eliminate all the Elite Praetorian Guards without Rey's help.
Then they part ways because Kylo places conditions upon their relationship that she cannot go along with.

Your eyes and your mind should tell you that Kylo used Rey as a pawn to get what he wanted.

That is not love. That is selfish manipulation.

Also, he did not kill Snoke because he hated him. He killed him because Snoke was standing in the way of what Kylo wanted.

You are giving a huge benefit of the doubt to someone who has not revealed he is deserving of it yet.

 

I can see you're determined to see him only as a manipulative bastard who can apparently cry on command. Snoke was totally a great guy and Kylo just sliced him in half for his own means only and Snoke was probably never abusive to him at all.

I'm not giving any "benefit of the doubt", the filmmakers have shown us clues that, deep down, he's still Ben Solo and, furthermore, we've been told he has compassion for Rey. If you choose not to see/hear that, that's on you.

 

Snoke even sensed it: "You have to much of your father's heart, young Solo. Kylo: I killed Han Solo. When the moment came, I did not hesitate! Snoke: And look at you. The deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced, bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber, you failed! Skywalker lives! The seed of the Jedi Order lives. As long as he does, hope lives within the galaxy. I thought you would be the one to snuff it out. Alas, you’re no Vader. You’re just a child in a mask."

 

Yes, THANK YOU.

 

You are completely missing me.

He may be conflicted and he may yet show (outwardly) what you are talking about. However, his actions and words with Rey to this point are actually common signs of abuse in a relationship. Crying is also a typical manipulative tool used by abusers. . . though in this case, to be fair, I feel it was somewhat genuine.

I like his character. I see the points of what you are saying - they just do not rise anywhere near the level they need to be in order for me to acknowledge them as "real" or to provide him any credit for his consistent manipulation towards his own means - blindly self-righteous or not. He has shown zero penitence to this point and has doubled down on himself as the supreme power that will lead the galaxy towards his personal vision rather than display any contrition to his previous actions.

Internal conflict means nothing without outward actions. His crying when Rey shuts him out could mean a myriad of different things at a time when he was very likely experiencing several different emotions (Luke, his mother, loneliness, emptiness, etc.) - not necessarily because Rey as an individual rejects his "love" for her. I would also posit that it is equally likely that he is crying due to the loss of his obsession rather than real love. He could be trying to fill a void inside himself through the presence of having Rey as a partner.

And sure Snoke called his internal conflict out. But in the scene in question, the Manipulator was being manipulated, by none other than Kylo . . . who was using these skills to get what he wanted out of Rey as well.

He is a complicated, conflicted character played by a very gifted actor. That is why is so easily debatable from all sides.

 

Please, please, please stop applying real world scenarios to a space opera, I beg you.

I'm not missing anything.

 

I have absolutely no idea what will happen with Kylo in The Rise of Skywalker and I think that is perfect. All of this Kylo talk reminds me of arguing with my friends after The Empire Strikes Back about Vader being Luke's father. I thought Vader was lying because Obi-Wan wouldn't have misled Luke. I was wrong, but still enjoyed Return of the Jedi very much.

Anything could happen in TRoS, I think all of this debate is a huge part of the fun in having new Star Wars movies. My only advice would be to not get too attached to your own ideas that you can't accept something different happening.

 

You are definitely missing something.