Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

Can I say just that, if you want to control someone, you need that person to feel insecure.

You cannot be the puppet master of a self-assured man/woman.

Palpatine used Anakin doubts and weaknesses to seduce him.
I don't even think it was coincidence Padme's death and Palpatine telling it was him (Anakin/Veder) the one who killed her.
Guilt is another feeling that makes people insecure, easier to manipulate.

In this sense, Anakin and Ben stories are similar.
We don't know well the details, but it looks like Ben's never been a sheltered boy/joung man and Snoke took advantage of this.
He turned Ben into Kylo, and "to complete" the trainig asked him to kill his father.
But the real pupose is not making him stronger: but to control him even more.

If so, I guess Kylo is attracted to Rey just becouse she's light.
And he still feels "the pull to the light"
Whatever this connection is, or will be played out, I guess we are still on a traditional path.

 

I always wonder if Kylo will kill one of his knights, if they fail him.

 

Only if the knight will fail him for the last time

 

Do you think Kylo will wear the same mask like he did in Episode 7 ?

I really loved the "Revanish" design of that thing

 

Most likely, just like Vader did...he probably has multiple back jos to be safe.
.

 

I've thought about this subject quite a bit as well - What does Dark Side training entail? How exactly would Snoke "complete" Kylo's training?

Personally, I would love a scene depicting Snoke's brutal, ruthless training/punishment/torture of Kylo, showing just how much control and dominance he has over his apprentice. (I'm not sadistic... well, maybe I actually am ) But in the end, it would make Kylo's redemption all the sweeter seeing Snoke's extremely pissed-off looking face when he betrays him.

One way I've imagined this in the past was similar to how Plagueis trained Sidious, from James Luceno's novel. (I KNOW, I KNOW, SNOKE'S NOT PLAGUEIS. PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME!) I noticed some similarities with how Sidious was manipulated into killing his own family as a test of his allegiance. As an example, this is a passage from that novel, but altered a little to suit Snoke and Kylo. I can still imagine a similar scene between the two:

The obedient Kylo stood shivering in swirling snow. Around him rose ice pinnacles shaped like jagged teeth; a glacial wind howled through them. Snoke stood nearby, flakes of snow and ice gyrating around him but never lighting on him, melting before they reached him.

“It was on this world that I first became aware of my Force powers and dark impulses,” he said, loudly enough to be heard over the wind. “If you were of a species acclimatized to these conditions, I would have brought you instead to a desert world. If you were an aquatic being, I would have stranded you on dry land.”

Snoke paused to regard Kylo. “Your blood is close to frozen. Too much time here and you will die. That is what you will think at the beginning, when the dark side has sniffed you out and sidled up to you. You will think: I will die; the dark side will kill me. And it’s true, you will die, but only to be reborn. You must take deeply into yourself the knowledge of what it means to be removed; you must feel it in the marrow of your bones, because it will ever be thus.”

"Now tell me again, apprentice. And in greater detail.”

Once more Kylo allowed his memories to unfold, and he relived the crime—the event, as he had at last come to think of it. His father’s limp and bloodied body… In telling and retelling it, in reliving it, he had finally gained a kind of authority over it, the ability to see the event merely for what it was, without emotion, without judgment. It was as if the event had occurred years earlier, and as if someone else had authored the crime. When that defining moment had come, a transforming power had curled up inside him, as dark as space without stars, born of hated and fear but one he could now draw upon.

“Very good,” Snoke said, after the recounted tale had forced itself between Kylo’s blue and trembling lips. “I can feel your remove, and sense your increasing power.” He continued to appraise Kylo while the snow whirled between them. “I can’t have your will tempered by feelings of regret or compassion. You were brought into being to lead. Therefore you must see every living thing as nothing more than a tool to elevate you, to move you to your destined place. This is our galaxy, Kylo Ren, our reality.

“In this pitiless place, your power is forged."

“I understand, Supreme Leader,” Kylo managed in a stuttering voice.

Snoke showed him a malevolent smile. “I once said as much to my mentor, when in fact I understood nothing. I merely wanted to put an end to the pain.” In a blur of motion, he tore open the front of Kylo’s suit. “I am your torturer, Kylo Ren. So appease me. Tell me again how you killed your father.”​

It has been prophesied - The beginning of the end of Kylo Ren. The Force has spoken.




I fully believe we will see Kylo falter in a huge way in TLJ, and his major weakness will be glaringly exposed (in spite of Snoke "completing" his training).

I think he will "defeat" Rey in battle this time (thanks to Snoke), but when the moment comes, when he's pushed to his utmost limit once again, his true feelings will be revealed. He will save Rey when he's supposed to kill her. He will disobey a direct command from Snoke by performing an outburst of pure, pent up emotion. One that will be a definitive moment in this ST. An irredeemable act that will drive a wedge between himself and Snoke.

There is no turning back if he decides to save Rey's life. An act of that magnitude will be the point at which Snoke decides that Kylo has become a threat onto himself and a failure.

Lastly: Also in regards to Rey's Force vision, when she met Kylo in the forest, she was confused and scared, running away, but, in reality, she was much more assured in her own ability to handle herself in the situation. Likewise, in the above gifs, Rey also seems confused and scared, backing away from Kylo once again but, in reality, I think she will respond in a very different manner after she encounters Luke and hears the wisdom he has to offer. From Rey's perspective, Luke's teachings will influence how she will reciprocate any act of "humanity" from Kylo, but, ultimately, that decision will be revealed by her inner character and what she feels is the right thing to do. (Maybe this will be in fact the wisdom Luke will offer her).

And this post is of course just all downright, utter fanboyism on my behalf (for which I apologise profusely).

 

i agree he's going to whump Rey the next time they meet and i also agree that ultimately being challenged on the point of destroying Rey or subjecting her to torture will cause him to finally break with Snoke. which makes me reconsider what we already know about the relationship between Ren and Snoke (which isn't much).

but while i think it makes sense that Snoke would take a hard line with Ren after his failure, Ren's greatest weakness is his desire to be accepted/to belong/to be of purpose. Snoke may surprise us by confounding Ren's training with behavior that is less obviously cruel and more psychologically harrowing. there's a good chance Ren is going to come back to Snoke spitting mad that killing Han did "nothing" for him. Snoke is going to have to blame him for the failure, but also avoid frustrating him further--Snoke has to know Ren is precipitously dangerous when he's angry.

so Snoke's torture seems like it's going to have to be more subtle. more: doing this for your own good and you should thank me. and here are some more promises you'll lap up which i won't ever deliver on. that strikes me more like Snoke with regard to Ren.

also, Adam Driver said something else in an interview that is very intriguing. he was asked the question of whether Kylo Ren would live through the next film.
his answer:

Spoiler

paraphrased because i don't recall his exact words was something to the effect of: depends on your definition of the word "live".

you can take that response several ways, for certain. but as you said, @Fuzzball, i think he's doomed.

 

This is Kylo Ren we're talking about! The first time *is* the last time!

 

Or perhaps some new information comes to light that gives Ren pause?

Imagine such anger re-channelled as "righteous" anger and directed back at Snoke or the FO!

 

Spoiler: Spoiler

Perhaps he will die in the way Anakin Skywalker did "I Killed Him" transform in some way. It sounds fuzzy or vague and it also could be a red herring. They say all kinds of things. Remember what Hux said before TFA, "You will be surprised to find out who I really am". Setting us up for thinking he was Luke's son or some mysterious things. They are messing with us.

 

Spoiler

that's what i mean: it could infer a variety of different things, but it reveals a shift in the status quo: transformation.
we just don't know what direction it's going.
though i'm pretty confident "Kylo Ren" is going to die. hard.

i still want to see him put away the sword, but yeah, i think he could be a righteous avenger. hahaha

 

Probably we will see that Ben (like Anakin) wasn't destroyed. But probably they will show Ben Solo arc different than Anakin.

I really doubt that they will kill Ben especially if he is the only Anakin's grandchild (there's a high possibility that Leia can die, so Luke will be the only Skywalker alive? I don't think so).

In 2016 Star Wars Twitter posted "Star Wars ‏@starwars Has Kylo Ren gone too far down the dark path to ever be redeemed? Tell us your #ThursdayThoughts." And the majority were in favor of his redemption. If VIII will show that Snoke was manipulating Ben since he was a little kid, probably the audience will approve his redemption

 

Or he will be a completely different 3rd thing. Who knows.

 

haha Probably, yeah....Although he didn't seem so keen on killing people for mistakes...then again, that officer didn't make a mistake, he just delivered news.....Yeah, he'd probably kill knights left and right lol

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 14, 2017 ---

100% yes. That helmet is not going anywhere, it's one of the basic features of the character, it's meant to become iconic.

 

Spoiler: Aftermath: Empire's End

"Leia tries to reach Luke through the Force but fails. Instead, she has unidentified bad dream:

Luke. She reaches for him but doesn't find him.
The dark, now lit with stars. One by one, like eyes opening. Comforting at first, then sinister as she worries, Who is out there, who is watching us? Hands reach for her, hands of shadow, lifting her up, reaching for her throat, her wrists, her stomach -
Inside, the child kicks. She feels her baby turning inside, right-side, up and down, struggling to find his bearings, trying so hard to find his way free of her. It's not time, she thinks. Just a little longer.
Leia.
Luke, she wants to cry out. But her words don't come. her mouth is sealed, a hand pressed over it. One by one, stars go dark again, winking out of existence as if by a hand slowly closing over them -
Leia!
She gasps and wakes. Han. It's just Han. he's by her side of the bed, rousing her, gently shaking her shoulder.
The dream recedes like a wave going back to sea.
Hi, she says, her mouth tacky, her eyes full of sleep. her middle twists too - it's not the baby. It's some unseen fear uncoiling. The remnants of the dream haunt her - but they break apart like a sand castle as she sits up and clears her head, doing as Luke thought her to do.
Breathe in breathe out. be mindful of the world, the galaxy, your place within it. Everything will be OK. The Force will be your guide."



Leia is talking about being pregnant with Ben. She mentions that he feels more like a light, than a human body. Sometimes bright, sometimes dark. She then says that Luke told her this is normal, that we all have that; "the brighter the light, the darker the shadow" says Luke.

 

Ooooh boy. The part about someone watching.... it really does remind me of a certain excerpt from a certain other novel. The context is clear there. Somehow I doubt this is a coincidence. Thanks for sharing!

 

Guys...

Spoiler: SPOILER: Empire's End

"he[baby] is less a human shaped thing and more a pulsing, living band of light. Light that sometimes dims, that sometimes is thrust with a vein of darkness. She [Leia] tells herself that it's normal - Luke said to her, Leia, we all have that. He explained that the brighter the light, the darker the shadow.
Right now, her son is upset, tumbling inside her as if he can't get comfortable. His light, flickering with dark. She centers herself and concentrates. The walls of the room fall away. Everything is white and then it's black. Then she's in the clam, airless void. As Leia finds her peace, so does her son. he stops turning...
The he gets the hiccups.
Hic.Hic.Hic.
She sighs and it brings her out of it. But she laughs, too. Because the hiccups tickle her. They are like bubbles inside - a curious effervescence like nothing Leia ever felt before.
My son is alive. The future is bright.
...
The baby turns inside her again, troubled by something she cannot feel and cannot yet understand.

 

Related to the excerpts from Aftermath:Empire's End that @Lia has posted...

Interesting that Del Rey Star Wars is choosing to advertise the book from this angle. Interesting.

Spoiler: Very minor spoiler from Aftermath 3 about baby Ben's "official" name and place of birth

BTW according to people who have read the book already it is revealed that Han and Leia's son's official name is indeed Ben Solo and that he was born on Hanna City, Chandrilla (the then capital of the New Republic).

 

what if her kid actually snoke

 

Which novel is that?