Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

I have no doubt they will clash in The Last Jedi. I also believe he may bring other knights of ren with him.

 

FN-3263827 said:↑
and i'll just throw this out there: that the other option is still that he wants to somehow bring balance to the Force.
given his own imbalance and his desperation to rectify it, this is what makes the most sense to me.

FN-3263827 said:↑
everything about Ren Ben is is about resolving his pain. he might think the answers are there and he wants to take them from Luke by force if necessary.

I don't know... maybe not as thin as you might think!
I kinda like this line of thinking. This might incidentally be the only way to redeem him in a way that most 'Kylo-is-irredeemable'-kind of fans (though grudgingly) might actually accept!

I always felt that there was so much more under the surface of the whole 'shove-daddy-a-lightsaber-through-his-guts' than appeared at first glance!

Maybe he is playing a deeper, longer game than we know.
At least it would be a new spin to the turn-to-the-darkside thing we haven't seen before!

And when he finds Luke (and Rey!) all confused, this then brings Luke where he needs to be to chance the start of something new! A new kind of Jedi, Master of not just the Lightside of the Force, but ALL of the Force!

Not Light, not dark, not grey (or gray), but an unbiased, all-encompassing, non-fearing Force-wielder!
More like the Je'daii from the Legends of old!
(and John Williams could compose a richer, full-orchestra variant of the Force-theme with more bass-tones! )

Whow! (is meditating for a moment to regain his centre...) Sorry, got a little carried away here for a moment... but still...

 

A dark side warrior with a mysterious past, Kylo Ren was neither Jedi nor Sith, but a product of both sides’ teachings. Once an apprentice of Luke Skywalker’s, he killed his fellow students and drove Skywalker into exile, becoming a First Order warlord and servant of Supreme Leader Snoke. Kylo was determined to destroy the last remnants of the Jedi, fulfilling the legacy of Darth Vader.

OS databank

 

i should give you an "old news" for dredging this up. hahahaha
Hidalgo has said that this source is not "worded" as he would have had it done.
same with the Visual Guide, which also states this same questionable information.
these are the only two sources that say this.
we may yet find out it's true, but no other sources corroborate it and these are the only sources Hidalgo has ever made such a careful declaration regarding. nothing in Hidalgo's purview has ever corroborated this. and the databank is not going to be changed because that will just draw attention to it.

so i think it's very suspect, but we shall see...we. shall...

...nope, i'm not quoting that fishy-eyed toilet monster.

 

"But he was intrigued when he captured Rey, a Jakku scavenger whose Force abilities were raw but very powerful. A mysterious connection seemed to link the two.

But this shocking act of patricide didn’t make the former Ben Solo feel stronger – somehow he felt weaker. Kylo Ren had hoped to end the conflicts that caused him so such pain, but found he remained at war with himself, more lost than ever."

http://www.starwars.com/databank/kylo-ren

Interesting...

 

Ren requests another demonstration of dark side power.
Doubt?
He counters his father's warning about Snoke "using him" by attempting to reassure himself of the supreme leader's wisdom.
Doubt?
He feels weaker after “passing” his dark test.
Doubt?
He witnesses first hand the strength in Rey's demonstration of mercy despite his Master framing "sentimentality" as "weakness".
Doubt?

They say "one iota of doubt can be enough to destroy all faith..."

Hmmmm, perhaps Rey's seemingly successful use/control of The Force (for knowledge, defense AND attack) may inspire Ren to explore his Force duality in ways contrary to Snoke's intentions?

I guess TFA could also read as though it is his duality/internal conflict that is holding him back from his "destiny". Some random speculation riffing:

• Maybe his light and dark sum together to cancel each other out and he needs to find a way to "phase them" that maximises his Force "amplitude"? (As an audio junkie I sometimes view Force propagation in waveform!)
• Maybe he could reduce his internal conflict if he focuses on one side?
• Maybe he needs a Yang outside himself with which to harmonise his Yin?
• Maybe he just lacks self-belief and just needs a "there is no try" lesson in his training?!

 

yeah, i think it's less about picking a side and more about embracing the whole.
it's not about picking the good or bad side, but just being good or bad.

Ren Ben doesn't want to be bad, he wants to do right. he's just confused about what that is.

 

I wonder if we will see training montages from both Rey and Kylo? Would be interesting to see the other side of the coin.

 

I wonder if Kylo's dark side training would involve more subjecting him to grueling psychological trauma and pain (powerful, and maybe misleading force visions), than actual physical training. As long as we don't have to watch Ben do pull-ups, or jump rope to 80's synth music.

 

Yes, it would be very interesting to witness Rey and Kylo being taught diametrically opposed teachings by their mentors, displaying the contradictory nature of the light side vs dark side.

On one hand, you would have Luke teaching Rey to let go of her anger and her hate to use compassion as her source of strength. On the other hand, Snoke would be teaching Kylo to let go of his compassion to use anger and hate as his source of strength.

 

I just hope to see Kylo Ren knee Rey in the gut and force push her like a doll. I want to see a real fight (a real fight should only last 10 seconds). I want Kylo to walk toward her in her fetal position and say join me or die. Luke approaches Kylo and whips his ass; Kylo force runs for dear life. Luke offers Rey his hand, and says, we must train harder.

 

i suspect at this point Snoke's "teaching" may take a nasty turn.

 

Like a Rocky montage ?

 

LOL naw that kind of montage can stay in the 80s.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Snoke tortured Kylo, both mentally and physically, to test his resolve and his allegiance. TFA Snoke pointed out that compassion is Kylo's weakness, and he was going to use Rey to remind Kylo about this. Kylo also seemed to have feelings of regret for killing Han. I don't think it would be pretty sight, but it would be really interesting to see just how cold and heartless Snoke and the Dark side really are.

 

and i'm sure he'll think he deserves it.
i still fully expect to see Ren really vicious out of the gate in TLJ.
he's going to be doing everything in his power to crush his humanity (but he's going to fail ultimately ~ hahaha).

 

Yeah, things could get pretty dark for Kylo or Snoke may experience some serious blow-back.

I sometimes wonder if the internal conflict Kylo is enduring was actually a part of Snoke's attraction to Kylo's being forged form the Light and Dark. Snoke may be using this conflict to control and perhaps deliberately impair the development of Kylo's abilities.

Snoke is likely aware of the risks inherent in having a powerful apprentice with knowledge of the Dark and has taken steps to mitigate the chances of being usurped by Ren. There's always the possibility Kylo is using Snoke for his knowledge and intends to "crush him when he gets what he wants". It could be a factor as to why Snoke hadn't deemed it opportune to "complete" Kylo's training until the events of TFA.

In TFA it looks like Kylo has had some good training in line with some of your speculation. He did seem rather adept (from a Dark-sider perspective) at controlling his own psychological trauma (patricide goal ☑) and pain (functioning while severely wounded ☑).

Warning: Rambling follows...

I'm intrigued by the idea of Snoke training Kylo as it would offer valuable insight into both characters. Some fans think the joy Palpatine appeared to display while attacking Luke was because he was a sadist and even I've wondered if perhaps Dark-siders enjoyed anger, fear, and pain themselves (eg seeing Vader's Mustafar lair as sado-masochism rather than asserting dominance).

Others speculate a Dark-sider's pleasure is only derived from feeling/exercising power and achieving goals to that end. Any suffering inflicted on others may be an inconsequential (in their mind) by-product of their desire for power at any cost.

In the past I've thought the OT films should have presented the Dark-path as a more attractive option for the conscious choice of a more reasonable person rather than just a means to achieve power for narcissists and the misguided... but I guess the slow creep is an important part of the "power corrupts" theme. Perhaps Kylo's backstory may delve down this path?

It's interesting to note that Anakin made a reasonably informed decision to pursue his Dark Side but only when he saw no other means to achieve his goals (benevolence/ignorance as evil?). Yet so far he's the only Dark-sider I know off who apparently thought the "amass power for onesself" end-game ultimately wasn't worth it. (The Tragedy of Darth Vader The Wise-In-The-End?)

Technically speaking, Anakin was always in step with his old master's advice to Luke - "do what you think is right" - yet his desire for power, his alienation, and his beclouding (and that of his fellow Jedi) steered his descent and corruption.

If the choices (and suffering?) of family inspired empathy within a Dark Lord of The Sith then the same is certainly possible for his grandson - we know he can't hide elements of a nagging compassion. I know many fans - with good reasons - don't want him to embrace the Light, be "redeemed" or mirror Vader's arc too closely, but if Snoke's training is an attempt to ensure Kylo can never see compassion as a strength, I'm guessing Ren is going to face a similar decision to Vader's in ROTJ.

A state of internal conflict is rarely an ideal time to make any serious decisions, but with the "right" training, or a little compassion, it's possible anyone can make "good" decisions under-pressure. I'm sure BRen has some traces of "right" training and compassion buried within. "My son is alive."

Finish what your grandfather started Kylo - protect Luke Skywalker!

 

though i don't believe Ren is plotting against Snoke (yet), i do think Snoke has been deliberately controlling his knowledge and training--keeping him on a long leash for exactly the reasons you stated. Snoke knows he's a threat, but neutralizes him by keeping him off balance and emotionally compromised. he went too far with Han, though. i think he's underestimated Ren Ben's stubbornness/resilience.

i do think Ren is "using" Snoke insofar as he has his own agenda here, but i think he believes (for the moment) that he and Snoke want essentially the same thing.

 

I hope MSW will post some rumors about Kylo's humanity (something that Adam revealed that will be explored in TLJ)

 

The parallels Re def there