Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

To be correct, they are supposedly in his private room, where he keeps granpa's helmet. Not in the interrogation room. But also, as @FN-3263827 has pointed out. The ashes are not even canonical. BTW, Pablo Hidalgo seemed surprised with JJ's explanation for the ashes, i.e. he was not been made aware that that is what they are canonically, i.e. they are not canon.

But you also have no evidence against it, isn't it? So what you believe is your extrapolation. Let us not project things...
Funeral cremation in SW has been only shown as a respectful and solemn act as @FN-3263827 also points out. See Vader's funeral pyre in ROTJ and Qui Gon's in TFM. You have zero canonical evidence to show what keeping the ashes of the dead means in the GFFA or in Kylo's case. In some cultures on our planet, many people keep the ashes of the dead in respect.

"as if it's a canonical thing" really says it all !

it is also important (not that it is canon at all, but since we are talking about it) that these are ashes of his enemies, NOT as some extrapolate - his victims. There is an importnat difference there. Or rather there would have been a difference if that was canon. But the way it is now, it is as canonical as Millicent's toilet was.

"altar of accountability" - I like this explanation!
Also it might be part of his supposed dark side training. Who knows?
He is apparently conflicted and tries hard to maintain the persona of Kylo Ren...

But I think all of that is "bantha poodoo" (or Millicent's business) as it is not even canon. Until I hear in the movie Kylo says - I keep the ashes of the dead and why, this #ashgate thing has as much value as Millicent's litter box...

 

precisely ~ we can judge Ren by our standards 'til we're blue in the face (and many will and do), but where we don't have all the information, i don't see any point in judging. for me there's nothing about a plate full of (non-canonical) ashes that is an more perplexing/unsettling than the way he rationalizes killing his own father.

these things makes sense to Ren in context of what he's doing, been made to do, or what he believes in deeply.
we don't have to agree with him or even want to understand him, but we do have to own that choice and say:
i choose to judge and vilify what i don't know or understand.
that's sadly short-sighted for the people who do it, but to each their own, yeah?

i do try hard not to make frivolous excuses for Kylo Ren.
it's important to me that people can see his actual weaknesses for what they are.
but i also absolutely see him as a victim and try to understand him from that perspective.
not because it excuses his evil behavior, but because people aren't just evil for no reason.
and we live in a world that perpetuates evil by dint of our very lack of compassion for it.

and now i am preaching (can i get a halleluia from the choir? hahaha) .

sorry about that.

in the end, you are absolutely right, @Obi-Wan Solo, we might as well be talking about Millicent's litterbox.

 

Re: the Ren/Snoke relationship

At the end of TFA when Snoke says it's "time to complete his training," does anyone else think Ren might be in for some severe punishment?

To begin with, how else would you "train" a dark side apprentice except to indulge and exploit his fear, anger, hate, aggression, etc. And then, coming when it does - after Ren's complete and utter failure against Rey in battle - Snoke's line strikes me much the same way Vader's did when he told an officer "You have failed me for the last time." That his intention is just to make Ren suffer -- a sort of 'this-will-teach-you.'

I wonder (if we're privy to any of it) how Snoke would go about this. And if he does, will it push Ren away or reel him in?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 21, 2016 ---

(Has someone already brought this up? My apologies if so.)

 

I do agree, you are splitting frog hairs. Throwing a temper tantrum, beating on equipment and choking subordinates just because things don't go your way is indicative of a bad temper. Is it a short temper as well? Sure, we all saw it, but a short fuse or a quick temper is synonymous with bad tempered. I don't care if he pulls himself together or not, or for what reason. You describe his temperament as "short fused, frustrated, and occasionally rageful"...yeah, those are bad traits. Lack of self control is just one of KR's character flaws, along with poor judgement and skewed ethics, and the list goes on, but I hold him accountable for his crimes. I do like his work ethic though, to a point.

 

I felt like he was acting the way he was because he knows he's "good" deep down but so desperately wants to remain bad for the sake of his own life and becomes increasingly frustrated and arrogant as TFA moves along...he doesnt want to face who he really is out of fearing himself.

 

this is the crux of the split hair, i guess. you see someone pitching a fit because things didn't go his way.
i see someone having a meltdown over his own failure (and a failure that's the direct result of his inherent goodness, no less).
his behavior is a symptom of the war he's at with himself (with his essential good nature).
that, to me isn't simply a generalized bad temper.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 21, 2016 ---

i know there's a lot of headcanon out there that Snoke regularly tortures Ren (or has in the past).
we don't have enough information to judge whether this is true. my sense is that this is not the case.
that said, Snoke makes a threat in the book that is strongly suggestive of torture (physical or mental).
so i can see their relationship starting to go down this path; especially since Ren is obviously in a place to "deserve" punishment.

i think a lot of people assume that Snoke is treating Ren like a Sith, but that's not what i see, i guess.
Ren is pretty proud, very loyal, dependent, and Snoke has preserved him in a strange way (preserved his conflict, preserved his Light).
but Snoke is also at a place where he needs Ren to be fully ready to take on Luke, so things could change.

if Snoke punishes him physically, i think he'll take it as deserved--but only to a point before he bridles.

 

Honestely believe you're right on your Kylo Ren character judgement BUT, what really makes me like Kylo Ren everytime i watch TFA is that he is acting like that because he want's to be Bad.

Kylo Ren is trying very hard to be this super bad boy like is grandpa and it gets really frustated because he just can't be that bad.

The worst thing we see him do is killing his one father in cold blood BUT, there was no premeditation nor evilness in it, he just stroke in father out of spite just like a little brat would do. Killing his father was not a conscient option but a simple emotional reflex.

 

i'm going to challenge you a little on what Kylo Ren wants.
he doesn't want to be bad, he wants to fulfill his perceived purpose and to do so he needs to be strong.
that's how he sees grandpa: strong, capable, in control, effective.
those are all things Ren is really really lousy at right now and he knows it, though he's trying very hard not to show it.

and yes, i think you're absolutely right: he's behaving out of an emotional reflex.
pretty much everything he does is reflexive--that's a direct result of his lack of strength

 

Like any other Dark Force User i belive the only goal to Kylo Ren is to achieve POWER, Power over the Force, Power over the Humanity and the Galaxy.
Tha's why Kylo Ren and Darh Vader fall in love with the Dark Side, they were seduced by the power over the force they could get from the Dark Side.

Ultimatly Kylo's purpose should be becaming the Uber Sith Master, a new Emperor, controlling everybody and being the strongest creature of the galaxy.

 

nep, sorry. can't agree with that. it's not supported in the film or the book.

if he merely wanted power (which he's already got a metric ton of), killing his father would have been easy-peasy and would have actually, you know, empowered him.
his mind is very much elsewhere.

 

I'm not addressing, in this case, his overall nature. I am only focusing on his temper. Regardless of why he blows his top is irrelevant in this case for me; he could go off due to his failure, the failure of his subordinates, he ordered a bacon double cheeseburger but they forgot the bacon, it doesn't matter to me. What matters is that he is a hot head, and I like that because I can relate. I know people that are the nicest, calmest people around, but they just snap when they get upset. It's nearly comical; no it is comical. I know other people that run hot all the time. I know other people that don't flip out when they get upset. If you feel sorry for KR due to whatever happened to him, or didn't happen for him, that's on you, I don't feel sorry for him at all. I felt bad for Vader, not KR, maybe because I don't have as much vested in KR as I did Vader.

I see anyone who angers easily as bad tempered, regardless of their "nature". Is KR a "good person" deep down inside? I think so, if not there would be no conflict inside him. A lot of good people do bad things, but their being ethical and moral doesn't change the fact that they've done bad. Prisons are filled with "good people" that have done bad; is KR a good person that's doing bad? Well, he was resisting the pull to the Light, so I'd say there was some good left in him, at least there was before he killed his old man.

Pretty much the only thing we can agree on is that KR desires strength, which I have addressed elsewhere. When he asked to be shown the power of the Dark side, I see that as asking for the strength to carry on, to fulfill whatever mission or quest he may be on. Yeah, he's got power, but he doesn't have the fortitude that Vader had.

 

not sure what pity or relatability has to do with it since that has nothing to do with what i'm saying, but okay, i can go there.
sure, i feel sorry for him, but that doesn't mean i can't separate the good and the bad (and it's true, he's mostly bad).
i loved Vader and pitied him in the OT, but i didn't really feel sorry for Anakin in the PT (he literally bought his ticket).
i feel like Kylo Ren had his ticket purchased for him and was put on this train without much sense of the choice he was making.
so again, i see a person reacting badly out of bad situation, not because he himself is bad.
and yeah, total frog hairs perhaps. we just see the character differently. i am looking at his overall nature and not just his temper.

yeah: essential nature versus immediate behavior. i dunno that killing his father changed him at all. he didn't seem to be changed by it (not in a "go full Dark" sort of way anyway). you consider being bad tempered as "anyone who angers easily". i guess i don't. i know lots of people who are bad tempered but actually don't anger easily at all; they're just always grumpy ~ hahaha.

yeah ~ we can totally agree on this. he definitely lacks Vader's fortitude.
we'll see if he finds it in viii ~ one way or another.

 

So it's important to distinguish causes from symptomes.The symptom is the way the problem manifest itself- throwing temper tantrums. The cause is what causes Kylo to experience the symptom.

 

I agree. I have been paying attention to Pablo's tweets and JJ/Daisy/John/Mark/etc comments and I just decided this: as long as I don't see it in a piece of canon (book/comic/movie) I couldn't care less. I mean, I hear people making a fuss about a random comment made by Daisy or a clarification by JJ, but at the end it is not worth it using that to further strengthen or diminish a certain claim about the origin or the pursuits of one character or another...

My Trekkie friends warned me about him lol.

Agree.

 

i dunno ~ i mean, it doesn't change the end impact of the behavior, right? choking Mitaka is not cool any way you look at it, for example.
but i do think it makes a difference in terms of understanding Ren and the projection of his character arc.
is he choking Mitaka because he's just an insufferable brutish a-hole?
or is he doing it because he has legitimate impulse control problems as a result of his traumatized and corrupted headspace?
is he a tragic accident in need of rescue? or is he an irredeemable villain?

 

I couldn't agree more- you were not splitting hairs. I think it is essential to differentiate between cause and symptoms.

 

Snoke is almost motherly towards him, but in a manipulative way. I found it interesting that he didn't finish him off and let him go, rather than choke to death.

 

yeah, it's kinda disgusting.

we don't actually have any idea of what became of Mitaka, now that i think of it.
we don't see him again, but then they're not on the Finalizer after that scene, so i'm guessing he lived.

 

Looked like he was able to walk away.

 

You've mentioned before the way their interactions play in the novel, and it does sound like Ren is his 'pet.' (Ugh, disturbing.)

I'm just going on the movie, of course. And while I definitely see this...

...the line about completing his training struck me recently as having a more sinister implication than I originally thought. I'm not necessarily referring to physical torture -- I don't know how he would do it, or with what 'tools,' and I guess that's my question.

I had assumed (as I think others have) that this would happen off-screen, and that by the time we saw Ren again, he'd be a more assured, fully-formed villain. But now I'm wondering if Snoke is planning something that will put Ren through the ringer for the duration of Ep. VIII -- manipulating him, exploiting the anguish it causes him -- all to "complete his training."