Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

fer sure. if Ren was going to kill him they would have showed it. and Hux would have pitched a fit.
i don't get the impression Ren routinely kills his own people.

i have a feeling, like you, that we won't see it. Ren will come back in viii just more mean and formidable than ever, but also on "notice" as it were.
if he fails again the consequences may be severe and he'll have this hanging over his head.
so yeah, perhaps some continuation or escalation of the psychological wringer he's already being put through.
something more mental than physical. that's where Ren is weakest (he's plenty strong physically).

part of that too might be that Snoke will make sure Ren is good and furious with Luke and at peak rage against his family to prevent any sort of potential feelings as he had with his father.

geh. the toilet monster disgusts me. now with 99% more disgust than the leading brand.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I think maybe we will see it. I think a large part of Ep. VIII could be devoted to this idea - that Snoke intends to break Ren once and for all of his conflicted feelings, to plunge him fully into the darkness.

So when Snoke says "it's time to complete his training," the subtext, for me, is that Ren is being set up for psychological torment, in service of turning him fully and irrevocably to the Dark side. I think Ren could very well spend the entire movie mired in (and hopefully getting out of) such a trap.

Yes. Mind games. As you say, he has plenty of physical prowess.

 

absolutely. sorry ~ i wasn't disagreeing with you, i just meant we wouldn't see a scene in which Snoke explains all this to Ren; it would just be happening, ongoing. i just meant they won't show some obvious "punishment"--they'll leave that initial encounter to the imagination.

and yeah, i hope Ren's arc in viii is recognizing the trap, coming to resent and resist the trap, and somehow (with help, likely) escaping or being removed from the trap one way or another by the end.
he can spend ix doing the turnaround back toward the Light.

 

I hope so.

The more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that Snoke will give Kylo something to hold on to, rather than drive him fully into darkness.

 

i can barely stand to watch their scenes together as it is ~ so yeah, i don't need to see it. hahaha

interesting! Leia? Rey?
yeah, there's some reason he's let Ren hold onto the Light up until now. it's Ren that's trying to crush it.
Snoke seems to want him to control it without destroying it (or just deliberately keep him in this state of chaos).
we know Snoke prizes Ren for his Dark/Light mix. he must ultimately need both for his aims?

 

Oh yeah, definitely agree there. Ren will have to figure out for himself what Snoke is up to.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 22, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 22, 2016 ---

How would you imagine Snoke intends to "complete his training"?

 

For a start, after the fight their relationship is shattered, the cat is well and truly out of the bag. Kylo did fail the test and Snoke tried to throw him under the bus. Snoke knows that Kylo will try to through cross his plans again. So has to give him something to cling to, occupy his mind? Snoke will be wise not to underestimate the stage of hopelessnes, when Kylo turns fully dark it will be harder to control him- as you already said.

Secondly we still don't know anything about Snoke’s masterplan, why he has chosen Kylo- yeeears before Luke went into hiding. Maybe Snoke and Kylo are similar to each other, both embody the light and dark side of the force? I refuse to believe that Kylo's abilites are nothing more than a means to the end. There could have been an easier way to track down Luke. Hmm.

Edit. Huh, i am way off? To be clear, of course Snoke is a tough, pure, heartless 100% bad.

As discussed in another thread, there are several theories about Kylo's motivation, what made him turn to Snoke in the first place. I like the idea that it was not his thirst for power or the ideals of the FO, but his look for guidance. He was desperately in need when it comes to mastering his emotions and this is what he is still after. He needed someone who show him how to walk the light and dark side of the force without surrendering to one or another. Needless to say, Snoke isn't a grey jedi, but he tricked Kylo into following his ideals [...]

 

I have a theory that in fact Snoke is not powerful at all. He fears Luke and Kylo Ren is a means to an end. Or maybe he sucks the power from others, using and manipulating. It may turn out he is only good at persuasion. I want to know why and what plans Kylo Ren has with Luke, and why he wants to find him. (Wipe him out, use him? etc etc)

 

i agree with you: whatever Snoke's endgame is, it's totally selfish and he's just using others to achieve it.
Ren thinks he's wise and helping him, but he's just carving Ren into a tool, a weapon, a shield.
i think it partly has to do with Luke, but more importantly to destroy the future of the Jedi.
Snoke is reviving/thriving on the chaos of the galaxy, someone has suggested, and the Jedi threaten peace (and always will).

i think you're right: Snoke is weak. he needs Ren to protect him from Luke.

i have no theories whatsoever about what Ren wants with Luke. given his anger, i'm thinking he just wants to kill him, but do it personally (like something he missed an opportunity on and needs to correct, or vengence for what Luke did to Vader by turning him from his "true" path). it's definitely personal.

 

There is nothing to support your theory that Snoke is not powerful, and I'd probably lend some merit to that theory if JJ Abrams hadn't already stated that Snoke is a powerful figure on the Dark Side of the Force. Unless Abrams, who co-wrote the script for the movie, is lying, or I missed a vital piece of actual information... So I'd disagree with that entirely, but it's your theory so I respect that, although the same could have been said about Palpatine pre-ROTJ since we never saw him do anything before that. I do agree that Snoke is scared of Luke, absolutely, I'm scared of Luke FFS!

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/12/star-wars-andy-serkis-supreme-leader-snoke

"Supreme Leader Snoke is quite an enigmatic character, and strangely vulnerable at the same time as being quite powerful,” Serkis says. “Obviously he has a huge agenda. He has suffered a lot of damage. As I said, there is a strange vulnerability to him, which belies his true agenda, I suppose.”

 

Sure, they say he is powerful, but we just haven't seen it yet. I want proof.

 

Does this somehow support the theory that Snoke is not powerful? If so, I'm a little thrown off at the part where Serkis says, "...at the same time as being quite powerful." Everyone has a vulnerability.

 

Agreed the rewind then play again is effective, he pushed him away like he was nothing, Rey deserves to win this round since he mentioned ''Han Solo can't save you now'' poor choice of words Kylo.

 

Yep, Kylo Ren is a nasty, evil guy. No breaking news here.

So the perfect way for Han to get avenged would be for the son he loves to get killed by his brother-in-law, and for the wife he loves to suffer the death of her beloved son also, and for Leia to have to know her brother did it? We've had plenty of tragedy with Han's death alone, and I'm ready to be done with it. Redemption of Kylo Ren to me means redemption for Luke, Leia, and Han's legacy, and not endless revenge.

On the other hand, I'm not opposed to Kylo Ren being seriously humbled in a fight with Luke (although since he got his butt handed to him by Rey, this seems unlikely to me in terms of dramatic storyline), and this defeat being important to his eventual redemption somehow.

 

well that's an interesting read on the body language there.
i guess if you want to run it on a slow-mo like that, it can look like he's pushing.

at regular speed, it looks to me like he's just letting go.
the extension on his arm is actually a result of Han pulling away and he's lingering on his arm.
i noticed his arm late in the viewing cycle as well (probably 9 times in).
it's literally a blink and you miss it moment, but i don't see him pushing. he's just letting Han fall of his own accord.

in a weird (rather sad) way, it surprised me that he touches him at all.

 

Part of me feels bad about Ben if that happens.

Hopefully. Not because of him, just for the sake of Leia. She deserves some justice!!!

Snoke sounds like some sort of Apocalypse. (Sorry just saw the last trailer of X-Men:Apocalypse and heard the bit where he sucks the power of other mutants).

He is like a master of puppets. I really hope the nature of Ben can go over the Kylo Ren surface and see that.

Based on his comments, Snoke sounds like the Melisandre of a galaxy far, far away. (The ones who saw last night Game of Thrones Season 6 premiere will understand lol).

This is my face, literally:

Agree! The Big Three deserve better.

 

I believe your interpretation is most likely incorrect and I personally will have to disagree with that reading. As @FN-3263827 pointed out he is letting go of Han, not pushing him.
But also from the gif (and with wanting to see what you see), yes, you can interpret it as pushing. But analysing the scene more closely it is more likely that is letting go...

Both of them are holding to each other when Kylo stabs, then Han touches Ben's cheek and both let go. The rehearsal footage below gives interesting glimpse on the curious readjustment of their hands and arms.

As others have pointed out already, if you kill Ben Solo you actually kill Leia, her love with Han and if it is Luke who does it it is even worse.

Prepare yourself for the redemption, because the scene you show actually starts it, not end it.





We've discussed this scene over at this thread HAN SOLO'S SACRIFICE AND ITS REPERCUSSIONS FOR THE ST

 

I dare you to go tell the Christians that the redemtion arc is old, lol.

On a more serious note though, isn't that where the power of these sorts of stories lies? I'm a devout athiest, and even I can appreciate the power of a story that redeems the irredeemable. Doesn't that give us all hope, for others and ourselves? Isn't SW about hope? Doesn't the fact it seems Kylo is too far gone, and his actions to extreme for redemtion make it that much more powerful? Makes it harder to see the redemption comming?

Some of the more contrite argumments I've read have been regarding that Kylo can't possibly be redeemed concern the fact it's already been done with Anakin, so it would be borring for the story tellers to go there again. It's true that Vader's story was a redemption arc. However, that's a reason I'd like to see Kylo not only redeemed, but also atone for his actions. Vader did make the ultimate sacrifice, but, in a way, dieing is the easy option. Living and atoning is much harder, and perhaps the only way Kylo could display a strength greater than his Grandfather's. I think it's the easy option to just say killing, or death, is the answer. It's also not a very Jedi answer. And I like the greater implications this has in terms of the lessons it could impart to our own universe.

Does beg the difficult question though, of how could Kylo possibly atone for his actions?