Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

This is why flashbacks aren't enough, a whole movie wouldn't be too much to explain this.
Maybe the story in itself (Luke attempting to kill him) was enough for them to side with Ben.
Maybe they were disappointed in Luke and then the Vader thing motivated them to join the "new Vader". Considering Luke had become a legend, everybody knew he redeemed his father so they thought : what's up with killing your nephew
Maybe Snoke probed those students aswell.
Maybe Kylo already talked to them before, doing Snoke's work.

So many questions...

 

Yeah I think, @FN-3263827 is probably right. She normally is! Simple answer is the best.

Also, teenagers like to rebel. Any excuse, really.

 

i honestly don't want to see this--don't need to see it. especially a whole movie of it.
and there's already enough pain in this kid's life, so it would feel positively masochistic to watch him fall.
i flinch so hard every time the fishy-eyed toilet monster zaps him in the throne room.
i don't want to watch that slimy bagface warping him from inside.

we'll probably see more, i agree. because there are unanswered questions. but i think flashbacks/Forcebacks are enough.

geh. i hate that oily, wrinkled lamé-wearing creeper.

 

I don't think we'll have hour long flashbacks. But Ben reacting to seeing the KOR and being reminded of Luke. He tried so hard to kill the past, he failed utterly to do so. Even face it. It'll be taunting him again in IX.

To cheer you up, I hear Snoke is enjoying a nice "hellfire bath" with Satan. Another wrinkly creeper!

 

I can understand but in my mind, the movie wouldn't be about that, I think the biggest "pain" he had is what we saw of him as Kylo ren in both movies.
Him missing his parents as a young boy wouldn't be too hard to watch compared to what we already saw.
It would idealy cover parts of his youth as a padawan, showing Snoke (what is it he showed kylo ren exactly, how did he stir the darkness within him), showing the burning of the temple.
It would be a 2 sides movie, Just a little bit after the middle of the film is when he goes to Snoke with the students. Not perfectly split time-wise but so that we can have a constrast : Student of Luke, student of Snoke, powerful light, powerful darkness
If we had a trilogy for Anakin's turn, I think we can have a movie for Ben.

Think about it, more people would join your movement : SaveBenSolo if they have compassion for him.

 

My reading of the events at Luke's school of space wizardry is that Snoke was manipulating Ben from a very young age.

This is confirmed by various sources, in books and the movies via Leia and Luke saying that it was Snoke who is to blame for things. Luke also feels responsible because with his moment of betrayal which he regretted he basically was responsible in adding the last important stone that started the avalanche. His betrayal proved to Ben that what Snoke was telling him was "right". The tragic irony is that what Luke wanted to prevent happened because of the act of him trying to prevent it. Luke's moment of betrayal that was meant to stop Ben from becoming Kylo Ren was what essentially made him Kylo Ren.
Now that we know how enormous Snoke abilities are and among which is manipulating minds across light years distances this longstanding manipulation is already beyond doubt.

- Snoke preyed on Ben from a very young age, corrupting and manipulating him.
- Leia sensed something but didn't tell Han and instead decided that she should send him to uncle Luke to be trained as a jedi.
- In the meantime Snoke poisoned his mind telling him how his parents abandoned him like trash and how his uncle Luke is lying to him about his past. Most probably the biggest convincing card he had is reveal that Ben is the grandson of Vader. We know from the Aftermath and Bloodline books that in the galaxy among young people the cult of Vader and collecting items from the Imperial past is a popular trend (to say the least).
- When the galaxy learns about Leia's parentage a family secret becomes wide known and one of the things Snoke told Ben much earlier is proved.
- Then Luke tries to kill Ben in his sleep, an act of utter betrayal, proving Snoke "right" to Ben once again. And that was the final straw that broke the camel back for Ben wanting to break with his family, except from the connection with Vader. He made up his mind to finish what Vader started - kill all the jedi, destroy the rebellion/resistance and rule the galaxy.
- With his raw power it is not hard to imagine that Ben had already had a fanclub among some of Luke's students. After the reveal of Luke's betrayal those students decide to join Ben. As per the source below Ben was carrying out Snoke's order to take the temple down. The rest of the students opposed what's going on and were killed.

Important new information has come to light in the Snoke part of the SW Insider:

"Snoke believed that Leia and Han's son Ben to be adept with the dark side. He exerted his terrible influence on the young boy, corrupting him."

This is yet another place were they state that Snoke was manipulating Ben from a young age, from when he was a young boy.
"While his mother was aware of the influence Snoke had on Ben she kept this from Han, believing he would not understand. Leia felt it her role to keep Ben away from the dark side. "
But how, sending him away???WTH, Leia.

As Ren he carried out his master's will in destroying Luke's temple, etc.

It sounds to me that Snoke already had a plan of Ben destroying the temple - most probably as part of his dark side "training". Ben had not made the choice to do so, but Luke trying to murder him in his sleep proved to him that Snoke was "right"...

 

Y’all will have to forgive me but I’m new to Star Wars, something on twitter intrigued me about Rey and Kylo Ren’s potential relationship, I watched TFA on Monday, then TLJ every day this week since then...will probably go see it again tomorrow

Either way, where I stand on things: the thing that allowed Snoke to gain a foothold in Ben Solo was his feelings of abandonment for his parents. I feel that dealing with this pain from abandonment is his primary motivator, which drove Ben to seek an attentive, proud parental figure in Snoke. I say this because based on TLJ, he says to Rey that because of what he saw in regards to her parents, he believes that she will stand with him (on the dark side). He thinks that Rey will react to abandonment the same way he did. However, as he gets older, bitterness starts to set in, and here comes the secondary and most obvious motivator: forging his own path. He doesn’t want to be tied to the parents that abandoned him. Maybe Luke could have touched him if he hadn’t already seen him as a lost cause.either way, he was betrayed by another family member, so he takes on a new name and a purpose: be someone who is known for his own actions, gain power so that he never had to worry about caring about being abandoned again (Darth being the strong, confident, powerful man that stands alone), and go beyond his blood to create something new.

Of course, Snoke is not a great father figure (which he is looking for despite faulting Rey for doing the same thing). We also see Snoke blatantly and subtly insulting him to his face. I say subtly because in one of the first scenes, he seemingly calls *general hux* a “rabid cur” and says that the reason he had one near a a seat of power is because you can use their weakness as a sharp tool. However, who embodies rabidness more: unstable kylo or sniveling hux? In addition, whose weaknesses did he use to lure Rey to him?

I digress. This final, very personal attack (using him and his shameful need for connection to lure someone) is what makes kylo decide that it is time for Snoke to die. Then we get the glorious fight, and the unfortunate fallout. Kylo, rejected and abandoned yet again, by someone whom he empathizes with, whom he has connects with, whom has told him that he isn’t alone. Leading to his all out flail of an attempt to destroy the resistance once and for all.

I believe that he did know Leia was still alive (he knew she was on the bridge due to the force, why wouldn’t he feel whether she died or not?) what that means for his character, idk. I wasn’t seeing any tears, but I guess I can look closer. I also don’t think that he retaliated against the ships. I *don’t* believe he knew Rey was on the falcon(?), I think his aggressiveness was based on the ties that that ship has for him (father figure that abandoned him, that he killed (guilt)). I find the ending fascinating because while kylo does have his victory, is at is highest point in regards to power, he is at his absolute lowest point (so far?) emotionally. That is a look of shame, regret, hope (is it possible she still empathizes with me?), and fear (Is she going to reject me again?). Then we have the door close, Rey’s resoluteness. And...maybe a hint of difference in his response to this final abandonment? Look at his fist. It closes, but not tightly. That reads to me of sorrow and deep regret, not blind anger and a desire for vengeance.

The above difference (and a few other things) tells me that if we haven’t hit rock bottom, we are *very* close to it, and that he is going to be redeemed. I’m not sure if he will live through that redemption, but I feel pretty good about chances of him turning to the light. One, the split In him. Snoke says that he saw in Kylo a focal point of light and dark (TFA), han says he has too much Vader in him (ultimately redeemed), Snoke says he had too much of his father in him (a scoundrel and an antihero). Two, basic character arcs. he can turn into a flat out villain, becoming more and more depraved, but that is boring, with the conflict becoming basic good v evil. He can remain the way he is, but that is a stagnation of growth, and again, boring. He can go for redemption, and die in one final act that puts him in the light (dramatic), or he can live (also dramatic, perhaps gets at the balance theme, but I’m less confident that it will work). Three, hux. Hux and kylo have a rivalry. Hux was going to kill Kylo in the throne room. There’s no way that he couldn’t figure out that kylo either helped or actually slayed Snoke. Hux wants power. Finally, kylo has just showed his Maclunkey ass out there on Crait. We’ve seen hints that the first order sees him as unstable, someone to fear and avoid, but not someone to respect. This has to be cemented by his tunnel vision on Crait. It was never about snuffing out the resistance for him, otherwise he wouldn’t have been caught by Luke’s ploy for so long. It was deeply personal for him (actually, maybe about destroying the thing that took his mother away from him, the way he wanted the falcon destroyed?). Finally finally hux is the actual face of leadership for most of the first order.

Hux is gonna stage a coup that more than likely will end with kylo alone, at his lowest point, and willing to turn back to the light (and hopefully this is where the continued? connection to Rey comes in as a tie). More than likely kylo will be the only person who can help the resistance defeat hux and the first order and they will be forced to work with him for the greater good. (Guess there’s also a possibility that there’s a bigger bad out there, but would seem very 11th hour addition). What happens after that, idk. I would like to see a balancing of light and dark, but I’m not holding my breath for it.

Sorry for the novel, lots of thoughts and no one to share them with

 

it's a doozy of an opening post, but welcome to the Cantina!

#SaveBenSolo : D

 

Great first post! That's what we're here for--to toss our thoughts around with each other. Welcome to the SW fandom! (And hold on to your hat. It gets a little tempestuous at times. )

 

I do feel that Ben was a sensitive child who maybe had trouble controlling his powers.
He loved his parents and they loved him, but they never had enough time for young Ben.

Ben's parents were probably too much of a workaholics to give him enough attention.
Leia and Han knew they were selling him short and therefore sent him to train with Luke.
But Ben could have taken that the wrong way entirely thinking his parents saw him as a burden.

Ben as a Padawan was probably very insecure and already had a lot of negative feelings roaming inside him.
When Luke stood over him with the thought of killing him, something snapped inside him that ultimately sent him on his dark path.

That's how he probably became Kylo Ren.
Neglectful parents are often the cause of their children taking wrong choices.

No it doesn't excuse him, but you can at least understand some of his reasons.

 

Han and Leia were married before Ben was conceived.
yes, their careers kept them apart a lot, but by all accounts the marriage was a happy one (albeit rather unstable).

also, Han went legit, ran a business, and raced ships for a living.
he only returned to smuggling after Ben fell and he and Leia split up (about six years prior to TFA).

all that said, it probably wasn't the best environment for Ben because yes, he's clearly got a lot of emotional issues.
i don't think Han and Leia intentionally neglected or abandoned him. they were just at a loss as to how to help him.

either way, it's a tragedy. : o (

 

I've probably watched a faulty article about this.
You're right, I'm gonna watch Wookiepedia from now on.

I edited my previous post btw.

 

Then Snook was all "I'll be a comforting DARK presence". And probably preyed upon and stoked Ben's fears.

It's similar to how a lot of teenage rebels feel. Their parents don't take care of them, by being wilfully neglectful with attention. Kylo went to Snook because everyone else had failed him at that point.

 

yeah: someone was giving him positive attention and not tossing him out like garbage or trying to kill him ~ hahahaha
(at least not yet, which is how predators operate).

i do kind of want to know, ultimately, why Han, Luke, & Leia were so afraid of this kid.
because if it was just a "feeling", that's really Dark. maybe they need a flashback in which Ben's pulling the wings off of insects or something.

anything. hahahaha

 

Supreme leader Ren...I mean Kylo, or is it Ben? reviews The Last Jedi

 

Well said.
@madferox welcome to the Cantina!

 

I guess Kylo's Supreme Leader now.
I wonder if the FO will suffer for these turn of events?

 

Probably and I think that's why there needs to be a time jump for IX, so we can really so how far he goes in that new role.

 

I agree. Kylo is very emotionally unstable and will probably drag the FO down with that and his inexperience.

 

Why is Kylo Ren best fight move turning the lightsaber on... Killed his dad..turning on the lightsaber, killing Snoke...turning on the lightsaber. Rey saving his ass from the Praetorian guard by tossing him the saber. He kills him by turning on the lightsaber