SPECULATION OFFICIAL Finn Discussion Thread

I had this really elaborate response... and then I just stopped. I'll take the "road less traveled" this time and just say, I get what you're saying and what you're getting at... and in principle I agree.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

I think there were different dynamics at play with Han on the bridge. This was his father asking him to come home and showing affection for him. You almost get the sense that Kylo genuinely wants to give up the path of a Darksider for a moment. There is no such hesitation or cross roads for Kylo on Jakku IMO. He strikes down people with no compunction whatsoever.

 

while it's definitely heightened by the stakes on the bridge, i guess i just imagine this is the battle going on in his head all the time: that every moment he's challenged with moral decisions that aren't in the heat of battle where his rage and his physical training can kick in and take over, he struggles to make the Dark choice.

 

I have this crazy idea that LST was a mentor of sorts to Ben Solo before he turned bad which is why he has so much anger towards him because he thinks that it's his old mentor's fault that everything is happening .

 

I think the only dark choice he struggles to make is that one that symbolizes his full commitment to the Dark Side, slaying his father. Every other Dark Side endeavor he does (IMO) without pause or moral dilemma.

 

yeah, i don't see that. i see him struggle with Starkiller, struggle with Rey. and even after he does Han in, he's struggling still.

even making the ultimate Dark choice doesn't stop him from being conflicted. but i can see how others might have a different read on the character. that's just what i got out of him.

 

Interesting. Though I'm not sure why a member of the COTF would be mentor to upcoming Jedi, unless there were just too many of them to handle by Luke alone. I do feel like there has to be more to the LST story. His screen time was too brief to bring in a Max Van Sydow to do the part, if there wasn't more to it. Maybe there'll be some flash back scenes in Episode 8.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

I'm not tracking. What struggle with Starkiller and Rey are you referring to?

 

he tries to prevent Snoke from firing up Starkiller (it may be subtle [i don't think so], but it's supported by the script/book). he treats Rey with something akin to compassion (comparatively when you see how he treats Poe, and again, supported by the script/book), and instead of just destroying Rey at the end (which he should have been able to do, easily), he tries to convert her (maybe less a moral choice than some other objective).

i already had these impressions just from two viewings. then i read the book and the script, so i don't think either influenced my thinking.

but again, i've seen other people express similar feelings that none of this is obvious or struck them while viewing, so it could be either subtle or just a different read on the subtext of these scenes based on one's own experience, etc.

 

Yeah I didn't see anything from the movie that I would argue supports a Kylo Ren struggling with moral implications of death and destruction as instruments to an end. The only moral ambiguity I see that temporarily stays his hand is his father making an appeal to him to come home. That I would argue disarmed him for a moment. But I didn't see anything that indicated he had a problem with SK being used due the moral implications of killing people... especially not after he just ordered the Jakku massacre himself.

I also wouldn't interpret his interest with Rey as an indication of moral dilemma, anymore than a cat is exhibiting moral dilemma toying with a mouse. She is a toy to him, an odd new bauble that he would only avoid destroying because it intrigues him (and that's if you ignore that Snoke has already commanded him to bring Rey back based on his report. At no point in time, IMO, is he trying to kill Rey during their duel... she is under no similar self-imposed constraint when she lashes out at him).

I haven't read the novelizations so I don't know what you're reading there that's further galvanizing your position, but this is just my take, based on the movies without the benefit of the novelization contribution. If I read what you read, maybe I'd reconsider my position, but if I am to base it just on the canonical movie? I have to say that Kylo is pretty murderous despite the light side tugging at him.

 

This person makes great points.

 

just as a clarification, Snoke never asks for Rey until after Ren catches her and "toys" with her, so he has no reason to preserve her for anything but his own agendas at that point. in fact, he's completely off-roaded from Snoke's actual orders to destroy the map (rather than capturing prisoners).

and just as a further note: in the book, when Ren does tell Snoke about Rey, Snoke tells him that he failed to get anything out of her because of his compassion for her (he wasn't being brutal enough). so again, it's supported in that source.

but like i said, without the supporting materials, i can totally see how you draw your conclusions (i didn't see it that way ~ that wasn't my experience of the film just on its own, but i can see that as a valid alternate reading).

Kylo Ren is clearly capable of heinous brutality (the massacre on Jakku shows he can order people to their death with seemingly no qualms). my read on the character just happens to be that his comment to Han about being torn apart was an honest statement about his actual ongoing state of mind: serving Snoke and yet knowing instinctually something's not "right" about it.

 

Yeah but don't you think he's being a tad ridiculous about it ?

 

I agree, Snoke doesn't ask for Rey, until Kylo makes her aware that she exists and that she is Force Sensitive. But to me it seemed clear he was intrigued by her. That would be motivation enough not to kill her/harm her.

As for what you are saying Snoke relayed to Kylo... I don't know. Dark siders manipulate everyone. If those were his words, was it an actual evaluation of Kylo's tactics or was it further manipulation? I don't know. Could be? Or may be not.

 

Epic BS.

Rey will be a jedi, she won't have romance with anyone. Mark my words.

 

This dude's take.....is all over the place. He pretty much sees it as a conspiracy with everyone at every level guilty. And he can't write that well either. He rants as if he is on a message board. I've come across some more thoughtful critiques of Finn since the release of the film; a few I posed weeks back, most of them I haven't bother because it gets to be a bit overkill. I will have to come across a new one that is fresh in its approach and well written before I think about posting a link. That being said....Elvis Mitchell, in between a review/writeup for The Sundance Film Festival, referred to Finn as "the scared black janitor." Now Mitchell isn't some impulsive, dismissive critic. He is a very thoughtful, intelligent journalist who was once the head film critic for the New York Times and is widely considered the best interviewer in the movie business (great weekly NPR podcast show known as KCRW's The Treatment). I almost wish he would do an actual article/critique of TFA in order to get more of his take on the movie in general and Finn in particular.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

Your last point I totally get. Fans and the media have patted TPTB too much on the back for that. The congrats are well deserved as far as Rey is concerned. But I think Finn isn't exactly a step forward so far as a representation of a major black male character in a blockbuster movie.

 

I think people misheard Finn being a janitor because that's the broadest definition of "sanitation..." It's not like he was cleaning Snoke's throne-toilet .

 

Sorry. I can't buy that. The public (well other than moderators) don't get to pick what so-called "identity politics" are exclusively worthy of being regarded. In fact as soon as you bring up one you open yourself up to a discussion of others. I'm not giving TFA a pass for its fantastic portrayal of a powerful female lead (the first of a franchise) when its first non-white lead is portrayed in a way that its highly disappointing, if not outright insulting, to many viewers. As soon as TPTB cast Boyega you would have hoped they would have felt the same social responsibility that they seemed to have clearly had when considering their portrayal of Rey. Unfortunately they didn't. Doesn't mean they didn't have the best of intentions, but it may mean that, just with virtually every moderated SW message board, publicly addressing the whole idea of female portrayals in our modern day media is more acceptable and less contentious in our current climate than how race is portrayed or addressed.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

There's truth to that but the whole mixup could have been avoided altogether if the whole sanitation line hadn't been written in the first place. It was used only to get a laugh and wasn't neededIMO. As far as I'm concerned, based upon the majority of people who do seem to think Finn was a janitor sent to war, TPTB further sabotaged their own character with that throwaway remark.

 

to characterize the scene fairly as it was presented, Snoke just says "you have compassion for her," which Ren does his best to deny. then Snoke says (and i am paraphrasing because i don't recall the exact quote) "You need a reminder. I'll show you the Dark side. Bring her to me." so it seems clear (at least to me) that Snoke isn't interested in her for her FS, but to school Ren in snuffing his Light side tendencies (by either torturing her and making him watch, or forcing him to torture her himself).

but as we previously agreed, none of this is in the movie, so our experience of the scene as-is is as valid a point of reference.

and i feel like we're way off topic here since this is the Finn thread, so i'm happy to carry this elsewhere or drop it.

 

Well, if JJ and Kasdan have indeed mapped out how things end up for all these characters then the decision, one way or another, has probably already been made. And that being said.....I'm sure Disney wants SOME romance. SW trilogies have always had them. Rey is the logical name to throw in first because she is the lone new human female. If she is not destined for romance then TPTB better start casting those other rumored new female roles quickly.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

Thank you for saving me the time to write that myself. To reference a remark made a couple of pages ago, I'd take less civility in this thread if it meant people would remember to keep Finn as the focus of our discussions rather than other characters who already have their own threads. Or have we already ran out of things to say about Finn despite the insistence by some of how great and interesting a character he is supposed to be?

 

What's TPTB ? I think that he was sent to work in the sanitation D roar tent as a cadet doing security rounds and stuff on TSKB (which is hinge would have known so much about the base being in the security division in sanitation) and he happened to be assigned into Phasma's unit for his first mission since it's canon that Phasma really took Finn under herewith and saw promise in him aside from his weakness with his training buddies .

 

yeah, sorry. don't know how we got on that jag. it started out being about whether Finn has FS sensibilities.

Finn is plenty interesting and great. with or without FS. i think that was the point i was trying to make: that the scene in question is actually is a pretty heroic one all on its own and to sort of chalk it or try to "raise" it up by adding a layer of FS over it takes away from those heroic qualities (for me, anyway).