SPECULATION OFFICIAL Finn Discussion Thread

No problem. I mean we can agree to disagree on this, but it's not really off-topic IMO, because the whole point of discussing this was the larger discussion of does the Jakku stare down have even more evidence of Finn's FS? One of the alternative explanations for the stare down was Kylo Ren's wrestling with moral ambiguities. I say other than his killing his father, that these ambiguities don't exist and therefore the stare down with Finn after the Jakku massacre wasn't because he was vacillating back and forth on if he should confront Finn. That we are arguing a point about Finn, based on other characters isn't tantamount to taking the focus off of Finn. Finn is the reason why we're having the debate.

I also argued (in a separate post), that part of the First Order's philosophy is about order and discipline, and how much they seem to loathe anything that disrupts their concept of order. To fail to align to their order, seems to be the most vile thing to them, and even Kylo seems to feel that way (the evidence of which I take from him screaming traitor at Finn when they are about to battle on SK base). So the question that begs to be asked again (I think) is he could feel through the Force and extract something as specific as Finn's designation number (FN-2187) it stands to reason he could have also extracted whether or not Finn had followed orders. Given that Kylo doesn't confront him, as he confronts him on SK base, I take that to mean that Finn's dereliction of duty is also not what Kylo is sensing on Jakku.

 

and i'll just expound on what i said above:

to suggest that Kylo Ren looks at Finn because he is attracted to Finn's FS takes away, for me, what's really great about Finn in that moment: the heroism of his imminent defection ~ which, as i mentioned before, is something i think Ren particularly loathes not just because it's against hardcore FO indoctrination, but because it's something that requires a strength of will he himself does not possess.

to my mind, chalking the look up to FS recognition robs Finn. it diminishes that power that he actually has over Ren by suggesting he's only special because he has FS, and that makes him less relatable and less interesting to me.

 

The Powers That Be. In other words....those responsible for the making of the movie. And while your points about Finn's sanitation duties and such sound perfectly reasonable I believe the point you are missing is that far too many viewers didn't come to such conclusions. Instead they came away thinking Finn was a janitor. I'm serious.

 

Well I thought that was an implication, too, (at first) but I do understand the point and didn't miss it but I was trying to make sense of why people would think that to begin with and stick by it without thinking long and hard first .

 

Being FS doesn't take away from him deciding to turn against the FO. Anakin was FS and he slaughtered a temple of children.

 

no, it doesn't, but if that's the reason Kylo Ren looks at him, it puts the focus on Finn's FS instead of his heroism. i'd rather believe the focus is on his heroism, his strength of will.

let me put it another way:

one of the arguments made in this thread is that FSs are just intrinsically more interesting.

for me, the FSs are predictably engaged in a power struggle and it's easy to get distracted by their FS and not dig into who they are as people. i think the film is better than that, but it's the trap of the FS user. they become their power.

i wouldn't wish that on Finn for the world because he's more relatable as a non-FS person who can just be heroic on his own. ​

the additional argument is that Finn without FS never succeeds at anything and is a pointless addition to the film. '

others have argued about what Finn does contribute, so i won't belabor that, but i would suggest that he's not the only "failure" in TFA. in fact though Rey, Poe, and perhaps Leia and Chewie fail less, everyone else fails just as much or even more (Han, Hux, Kylo Ren [and by extension Snoke]). and i mention the bad guys because they are the heroes of their own side of the story.

i said it before and i'll repeat it here: to me, success as the measure of whether a character is interesting and important is a superficial expectation of a hero's role in a film. ​

i get that maybe i'm in the minority on this. maybe we can just agree to want what's best for the character. i feel like every time i read this thread i see people who want Finn to be a hero and yet just tear him down and diminish his role (and say that he's not good for anything unless he has FS, things of that ilk). i know that's not the intention, though. and maybe hoping he has FS is a way of assuaging the disappointment of his perceived lack of place in this trilogy.

i think it's setting up another set of false expectations that fails to appreciate the character's potential in other ways, but we're all just speculating here, so why not?

i'm happy to leave it at that.

 

Just watched it again and ouch the scene where he loses to the Storm Trooper. SMH. Then the other storm trooper snatches the saber like come on this isn't yours. The Kylo fight had potential but the more I watch it seemed rushed. Finn was ok but the scene and fight really was all Rey at the expense of Finn, after the fight once she is done crying she too yanks the saber like sorry Finn this is mine. SMH. Also with out getting into a bunch of repetitive conversations I personally know more people black, white, Asian, And Latino that agree Finn falls into a number of black tropes then the opposite. Hey maybe it's just my circle of friends, whatever, but they like myself feel some of those arguments are warranted, if you disagree with their opinion fine but that doesn't mean it's not as important as you want people to view yours. Peace. I think we all can agree the marketing was misleading.

 

What is ridiculous about their statement?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2016 ---

The writers made it clear they didn't write Finn's character to be interesting.

 

If there is a romance for Rey, it will be with Kylo Ren. a love / hate story.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2016 ---

So the movie is racist because Finn didn't get the white chick with the nice butt ?

What are we talking about here ?

 

Have you read the books either of the novelizations or before the awakening? In BTA Finn is identified as an outsider and is shown to be over empathetic. His only mission before transitioning from cadet to storm trooper was only a day or so prior to the events of jakku. He couldn't bring himself to kill civilians on that mission either. He launched into training simulations after the battle and could kill soldiers with ease but when it came to innocents he just couldn't do it. Him having a conscious would not have even registered on Kylos radar. What would have is a stirring in the force that was subtle then faded away.

I would ask you this. If you don't want finn to be FS how do you think the rest of the story plays out with the battle and trilogy being about the skywalkers and the jedi? If he isn't then the narrative of the story would have to shift a great deal to keep him relevant. You couldn't focus on luke and rey battling the knights or snoke with out the rest of the war being background filler between the mystical force use. If he is that makes him just as much a part of the battle between good and evil as the skywalker clan. THAT to me would make GFFA more relatable as a whole. Since a no body can spend his life in service to the machine and one day awaken to new abilities just like chosen few.

Until only a few days prior to the battle of jakku he had never been in melee combat. While training with a mace he barely beat nines. Mainly cause nines was more savage than he was. If he never touches another lightsaber and/or isn't a force user by the end of the 9th movie i would agree the marketing was miss leading. right now i will give them the benefit of the doubt that its foreshadowing.

When it comes to rey and romance you have this ... “You’ve met the traitor who served under me. You’ve even begun to care for him.” -Kylo Ren in Reys' mind please take your unfounded shipping to another thread

Racial issue are what gets most finn threads locked on this forum and every other forum. The people looking for a racial struggle in starwars will always find one. TPM suffered from that with people comparing watto to a jewish sales man. Just cause people want to be offended by something doesn't mean it is meant as an offense.

 

I care for some of my friends and that doesn't mean I want to do things with them.

 

At this point i assume you are just trolling or forever alone

Spoiler: Novel

Running to Finn, she threw herself into his arms. Neither could hug the other hard enough or long enough. The embracing pair finally separated, if only to look into each other’s eyes.
“Are you all right?” a relieved Finn asked. “What happened?” His voice darkened. “Did he hurt you?”

“Never mind me,” she said. “What are you doing here?”

He smiled softly. “We came back for you.”

She tried to find something to say to that, something worthy of the sentiment and the risk they had undertaken. She failed miserably. Chewie, however, had something of his own to add. Whatever the Wookiee had uttered caused tears to well up in her eyes. Having never found himself in such a position before, Finn was unsure how to respond. Knowing well her inner toughness, he wondered what Chewbacca had said that could have inspired such a reaction.

“What’d he say?”

She sniffed and wiped at her face. “That it was your idea.”

If he had been unable to find the right words with which to respond before, her reply, combined with the look she gave him, reduced him to a state of temporary aphasia.

 

if he's more relatable to you as FS that's fine. i don't see why he can't be non-FS and totally relevant. Luke was the only active FS character on the frontlines in the OT and everyone else was perfectly relevant. i guess i put less import on the Skywalker/Jedi as focus. to me Star Wars has always been an ensemble film and continues to be.

 

The issue you have is that KK and Disney have stated that they see the star wars episodes as the story of the skywalker familiy. Also the narrative is different for the ST compared to the OT. Where it was only vader as a sith and luke growing as a force user. In the ST you have the knights of ren and kylo ren opposite of jedi master luke and rey. Expecting Rey to be the only jedi shifts the focus of the trilogy to only her. Poe is a pilot so a fleet battle he would take part in. Finn can use a blaster so can every other republic solider. His heroics are meaning less when you can replace him with any random other person on the field.

Lets switch focus. Han Solo had a part to play in the OT right? He knew people, he had ship, he was the best pilot available, he came with a body guard. You have someone that can contribute more than shooting a blaster. Leia was integral to the resistance , she knew people, she had power. You again have someone that can contribute more than a blaster.

Finn helped with starkiller now his FO knowledge base is exhausted. He can't possibly know any more about the first orders operations beyond basic tactics. which anyone fighting them would have already learned. So if he has nothing special to bring to the table what is his purpose going forward? To battle phasma? I can appreciate what you mean about a regular guy being willing to stand up for whats right. that is why i like the character FS or No FS. However i am not convinced he can play an actual role in the story going forward if he is not FS, mainly cause of the half dozen force users they are going to face going forward. You can't call him a co-lead (obi-wan in RotS) if he is just a supporting cast member (lando in RotJ).

 

i just fundamentally disagree that Finn's role is meaningless, doesn't have potential or power, or that being a co-lead means you need to be somehow measurably equal in skills/abilities/whatever.

maybe more to the point, i believe we disagree on the definition of Finn as co-lead even as a premise, which makes discussing this difficult.

i feel like we're talking apples and oranges in some ways. i can totally appreciate what you're saying about Han and Leia and supporting roles and not being able to see the path ahead for Finn clearly. i absolutely agree it's murky.

i guess i just have faith given what we've been presented so far. the lack of current clarity does not diminish Finn's great character for me.

 

Well it is called star WARS for a reason. I really doubt there is a way for the charcter to remain as he is and stay relevant. The scrappy underdog thing works for one movie. Can you honestly say you would be OK with Finn just running around with a blaster trying real hard but failing for 2 movies. He doesn't necessarily have to be FS. He could be a bobba Fett like charcter for the resistance or a spy. But being FS is the easiest way to power and relevance in star wars. Two things Finn sorely needs.

 

He author of that article is stating things like "afinn is a janitor because he's black" and things like that .

As for @Sicksackboy , I think a really cool/MAJOR twist is that Finn was working as a spy for Snoke he entire time but falls in love with Rey and he's torn between actually having them all killed by Snoke or sacrificing himself because of Rey .

 

it may be the easiest, as you say. but it's the least interesting as far as i'm concerned.

characters can grow in so many other ways than just acquiring Force skills. and why does he have to fail for 2 movies? why can't he succeed in the next one?

 

Seems Finn's possible force sensitivity is still the at the centre of the Finn discussion. And will continue to do so at least until December 15th 2019.

 

"Sometimes there is more than one significant leading role in a dramatic piece, and the actors are said to play co-leads; a large supporting role may be considered a secondary lead." The production and writers have label him as a Co-Lead not a secondary lead. This is how i am taking it as it is how the industry views it. The terms may not matter to viewers but it does to the writers and actors. It effects how much screen time they receive as well as what kind of part they play in the story.

The way the narrative is set in motion you need more than one magic user to battle the army of magic users. If they change the narrative to be about the war not the battle between light and dark then you would have Poe take a larger role than either Finn or Rey. Maz made it clear that the only fight that matters is between the light and the darkness.

If anything Rian or J.J. has said is to be believe then both Rey and Finn are following the heroes journey. Where rey is following something new to the starwars universe Finn is following the tradition star wars narrative. (ill see if i can find the article where they stated that) I don't see how not being a force user would fall into traditional starwars narrative.

That all being said if he isn't a force user how do you keep him relevant to the story/power curve? He can't fly, he has no command in the republic, rey has the falcon, Poe is a pilot so no buddy cop ground mission for him. Being a covert spy is too slow and impossible for him(they kinda know what he looks like). So the question of the day is How would you keep the character relevant?