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SPECULATION Official Knights of Ren in Episode VIII Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by JediMasterRobert, Mar 11, 2016.

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Are the KOR Acolytes of the Beyond?

  1. Yes!

    5 vote(s)
    10.2%
  2. No! They have nothing to do with them.

    24 vote(s)
    49.0%
  3. Yes! At least they were...

    20 vote(s)
    40.8%
  1. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    The book mentions The Acolytes of Beyond. They are a group of darkside fanatics who are looking for things dealing with Vader. I believe it mentions his lightsaber specifically. It isn't made clear if they are one in the same with the KoR.
     
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  2. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    In MillenniumFalcon.com's scene list, there was going to be a scene of Kylo Ren joining the Knights of Ren.

    Abrams said (Entertainment Weekly) that TFA was going to explain the origins of Kylo Ren's mask and where it came from. But it didn't. So it was cut.

    As for the Sith...

    J. J. Abrams: "The world is so rich and clearly the extended universe proves that there are many more stories to tell beyond what you just saw in the six films. The idea that the fight of good versus evil would continue is already clear in the Star Wars legacy. There had been for thousands of years a fight between the dark and the light. The idea that that would suddenly stop entirely after Return of the Jedi felt disingenuous." (December 7, 2015)



    This response was somewhat peculiar. So it's Bane's type of Sith that were ended - the ones that followed the rule of 2.





    (what the Episode I novelization said about founding of the Sith before and after Bane)
     
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  3. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Thanks for information mate. Haven't read the book..seems the KOR will stay clouded for a while:)
     
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  4. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    I am hoping VIII gives us a little more clarification on what is going on with them. I cant see them waiting too long before involving them in the story more. I think the Acolytes of Beyond is a little bread crumb subtly dropped in Aftermath. I expect more of this in the other new canon novels as well. It may be possible that this group stumbled upon Snoke or vice vera and he made them into what they are. He might have used their obsession with Darth Vader to help drive Kylo (Ben) to turn. If a strong darkside force tells you he has a posse of other Vader fanatics waiting for you to wreak havoc with that's pretty temping if you are also into Vader aka your Grandpa.
     
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  5. Blastaar

    Blastaar Rebel General

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    They better not whip out vader's lightsaber. Anakin's saber was a bit of a stretch, but not at all impossible. Vader's saber blew up with the death star so they better not pull that out of a trunk somewhere.
     
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  6. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Don't worry, even though the light saber was sold to the AOB as Vader's, the book specifically promotes doubt about whether the saber actually was Vader's. At this point the saber could be anyone's from Revan to Bane to Plags. I think it most likely the saber will turn out not to be Vader's.
     
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  7. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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  8. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    On in-movie explanations:
    All we need is a few lines of dialogue. Just enough fill us in without it feeling like a Wookieepedia article. Something like:
    "For a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."
    "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil. He helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights."
    See? Just a few lines and we have enough for the film. Detail work can be left to comics, books, or television (the latter of which I'm suspecting might start dropping hints really soon, but I could be wrong).

    On their appearance in Episode VIII (as well as Episode IX):
    I do hope they show up or they are a wasted storytelling opportunity and a waste of time mentioning them in The Force Awakens. They could serve a role similar to the Inquisitors of the old Empire combined with that of a lower-tier Darth Vader (lower tier as Kylo currently holds the right hand man position). Someone to go in that requires special attention, especially situations with Force sensitive individuals might be involved.

    On their origins:
    Part of me doubts the Acolytes of the Beyond. Most of it is irrational (for some reason, I don't like it), though part of it is their description. They really just sound like Sith groupies who aren't the brightest lightsabers in the galaxy. True, they could evolve and change, especially if Snoke (or another powerful figure in the Dark Side) helped said evolution.
    I also doubt that the Knights have any connection to any younglings who were in the Jedi Temple during Order 66. Considering how it was said that no one survived and that even the younglings were killed (even specifically stating by lightsaber), I highly doubt it.
    Personally, with the remaining threads of this season of Rebels (as I said in my post about The Fate of Ezra Bridger), I have a feeling that the origins of the Knights of Ren might lie during the height of the Empire, not during its decay.

    The Sith'ari is currently a non-canon concept.
     
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  9. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    What a curious answer: 'Too early to say for sure'. Would that mean this hasn't been decided yet? I wonder how many details about the KoR are still undecided at this stage. Pablo obviously leans towards not but I wonder if other members of the story group are in favour of yes.

    Confirmed: civil war amongst the writing group.
    Well, at least we know that the KoR will be looked at in more detail in some form of media, hopefully films but more likely comic books/novels.
     
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  10. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Yup *nods*, I mean how little of the Sith was shown in the previous movies...


    They definitely will show up, as to how much..... I still remain unconvinced as to how involved with Snoke they are. After all, Kylo is their leader, not Snoke. If they do anything for Snoke, it has to be at the behest of Kylo. Snoke may have influenced them, directly or indirectly, but he is not their leader and they seem separate to the FO, even if they seem somewhat aligned with them through Kylo and his mentor at this point. I think they will end up having their own agenda. I'm on the fence as to whether they are Force sensitive or not, but regardless they seem competent enough warriors at any rate.


    I generally agree with your sentiments here, and I have that irrational dislike also. I'm just hoping all the pointers are misdirection. I don't know how likely that will be though, as otherwise there is yet another Force affiliated group to contend with, and that gets hard storey telling wise. Also, we don't really know enough about the KOR to say they aren't Sith groupies who generally a sheep short in the top paddock. It's often been easy to hate, yet admire and respect, previous Sith badies, and I wonder if we might just end up hating the KOR? They might not be smart enough to admire, but who knows? Kylo might be the only brains, being leader and all. And really, if they have Kylo as leader, chances are they don't value emotional stabilty particularly highly.

    I wonder if my irrational dislike here stems from a desire to see a truly formidable Sith like group of bad guys take on the Jedi. Dunno.



    Agree, but I think in addition to that theory, some people are also arguing that Kylo is not the only former student of Luke in the group, and that some or all could have defected to KOR from Luke's New Jedi academy. I don't really hold with that myself, but I guess it's not impossible. The main thing I have with that is the apparent lack of lightsaberish weapons they seem to have, though granted this could be got around. Still just musing over this one, with no real leanings yet.



    Too true, but they do so love to pick and choose the best bits of the old cannon to recannonise. Doesn't mean the concept will remain forever outside the new universe, and it is fun to play with ideas and speculate. I do admit there is a certain symmetry and duality about Anikin/Vader being the fullfillment of both Jedi and Sith prophecies at the same time that does appeal to me though.
     
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  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    if Kylo Ren is calling the shots with the KOR (and he should be) it will be interesting to know how much of the shots he's calling are independent of Snoke's will (given Ren's general lack of agency ~ which, when he does attempt to exercise in TFA gets him into trouble every time).

    i really am still pulling for the forceback vision to be future instead of past. then we'd get to see the KOR in action. Ren needs to get his street cred back (i don't care if he wound up in the snow cut to shreds, he's still the guy who can stop a blaster bolt mid-air). and showing him tearing up the place with the KOR (as a focused, efficient tribe) would go far to do that.

    if they're just going to end up being a buncha thugs squabbling, i'm going to take issue with that ~ hahaha.

    i really hope not (for the reasons i stated above). and if we do, i hope they are dispensed with quickly.
    it is a mystery at the moment how someone as disordered as Ren can be their master, but then they might not be FS and so it would be easy enough.

    it's hard to imagine Ren with colleagues/friends. he's such a lonely sad thing. so his relationship with these other knights is certainly mysterious.
    especially since they don't appear to be helping with the current task at hand, and so where the heck are they and what are they doing?

    i'm not convinced this is true, but i'm hopeful that it might be. yes, then they would have to be FS, but probably Ren is the strongest given his bloodline, etc.

    i kinda like this too!
     
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  12. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Yeah, so even though Kylo may be calling the shots with KOR, how much of that is really his and the Renners and how much of it is what Snoke's manipulated him/them into? Well really, for all we know at this point, the KOR could all sit down at a round table and take a vote on matters (yeah, even I really can't see that workin, but stranger things have happened). Kylo seems to give the impression of religious fervor in regards to Vader, and also that he has, in some twisted way, a noble purpose. Perhaps the KOR share this outlook somewhat? What is their twisted noble purpose, I wonder...

    I think Ren can be a little passive-agressive towards Snoke at times. I think he has some awareness of how Snoke is maneuvering him and the KOR (he's not really surprised at Han's view of Snoke), and I wonder if he plays it up a bit in an effort to lull Snoke into thinking he's more under the thumb than what he is. You have to wonder how the KOR view Kylo's pandering to Snoke, and how that fits into the picture.

    In regards to Kylo's passive-agrssiveness, I always wondered why Kylo gave Finn that look in the village at the start, but then continues on. I always thought it was because he was preoccupied. Now I'm not so sure that's all it was. I think he knew what was going on with Finn, perhaps even suspected Finn may defect with Poe, and didn't care because he knew he would have everything he needed from Poe by then. Also, bonus, it makes Hux and his Troopers look bad. Ren was more interested in his own goals, than whether the FO conditioning programs worked, or how FO justice was delivered. Troopers were really only useful to him in as so far as they could aid his goals, not nessecrily the FO's. Hux obviously suspects Ren is more about his own agenda, than that of the FO's, thus part of the reason he dislikes him and takes every opportunity to make him look bad in front of Snoke.
    Hux is just an out and out Snokey pawn, while I think Kylo has some awareness of his pawnness and is slowly figuring out how to subvert Snokes a bit.
     
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    if they're going to be treated as sort of Sith-ish templars, that could be awesome: like, all they're interested in is protecting and preserving the Sith legacy, and could really give two figs about the FO. that would make Ren a sort of diplomat/liaison/ally more than just a tool (as far as like Hux is concerned).

    i don't see Ren being passive-aggressive to Snoke, but he's definitely passive-aggressive about Snoke. his behavior with Hux is appalling. from a military perspective, he's out-and-out insubordinate!

    my first impression of the Finn thing was that Ren knew what was up and had a moment of jealousy/frustration at feeling like why was Finn able to say no (when he himself is not), but Kennedy says that he knows what's up with Finn and is having a moment of "oh let it go, be compassionate", which is why he flips out so bad later with Mitaka (because it's basically his fault that the pilot escaped and now the droid has gotten away too).

    all that said, i can see him being snipey about the FO (it's all beneath him), and even though he has no reason to compete with Hux he's going to do it anyway because he's colossally insecure and Hux isn't intimidated by him (and that probably annoys the crap out of him).

    he's clearly aware of his pawnness, but i don't think in TFA he's got any aspirations of subverting Snoke in an all-out way. he's got an agenda, but i still think he believes it's more or less in line with Snoke's plans for him. Snoke has apparently allowed him to be hot-headed and even disobedient to a degree. it's probably part of how he convinced Ren to come over to the Dark side (especially if Luke was trying to get Ben to control himself).
     
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  14. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    I concur. Ren thinks, as does Snoke, that their agendas conincide, for the moment. But I also think both can sense that the moment is comming when their agendas will diverge, and are trying to outplay each other. Snoke has the power and the experience at the moment, so Kylo treads lightly, but I don't think he's in Snoke's thrall as much Snoke thinks he in his thrall, if that makes sense. The groundwork is being laid.
     
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    it'll be interesting to see how Ren comes out of the gate in viii. i still feel like TFA is the first time he's really pushed back on Snoke in any meaningful way, and now he's been saddled with his father's murder (for seemingly no gain at all), so that's not likely to sit well with him, especially given Han's warning on the bridge.

    i think, if in TFA, he'd been more cognizantly playing Snoke (or less in his thrall as you put it ~ probably more accurarely), the bridge scene would have played out differently.

    i think part of what influences my thinking on this, too, is the book. because Ren seems absolutely fully in thrall there. hahaha
     
    #95 FN-3263827, Mar 24, 2016
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  16. Bluestreaking

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    I still feel there is a chance, albeit a slim one, that the KoR predate the Empire/FO.

    The plothole of Luke's saber is going to have to be addressed and the KoR are too effective a tool to address the issue to just be tossed aside as a post-Empire Sithesque Cult.

    There is a lot of story potential to play with here and I hope they don't scare themselves into going too conservative with it, Rian Johnson does strike me as someone willing to take the dive though
     
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  17. Vader_the_White

    Vader_the_White Rebel General

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    And from what we have heard about Episode VIII and Laura Dern's character, I agree.
     
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  18. Search your feelings

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    Agree. I hope Rian takes creative chances with Ep8. It's primed for it - JJ's reintroduction paved the way, the cast/crew will be more comfortable in their roles and with each other. They know what works and what doesn't. Ep8 is ready to go in any direction creatively.
    I haven't thought of the KOR predating the Empire. That would be an interesting idea they can play with. I always imagined they were a group of bounty hunters/strike team/Kylo fanatics who worship Vader and the Empire. Maybe one of them was another of Luke's students. But an ancient pre-Empire group seems possible as well.
     
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  19. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    My theory is that they're a group of elite warriors/assassins who are only loosely connected to the FO (through Kylo being their leader). And Snoke has, indirect, influence over them through being Kylo's master.
     
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  20. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    #100 MagnarTheGreat, Apr 1, 2016
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