SPECULATION OFFICIAL Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

Thanks!

Leia says herself in her conversation with Han. "No matter how much we fought." Kylo tells Rey about Han "He would have disappointed you [as a father]." Why does Kylo hate Han so much? Because he was an abusive husband and father.

Ben was obviously an accident since he was born right after Endor. Han never wanted to marry Leia, he was going to go off smuggling with Chewie. But then Leia got pregnant accidentally and he felt it was his obligation to marry her, even though he didn't want to. He was a failure as a husband and father and did not love his son, nor want him. As Adam Driver and JJ Abrams said, Han cared more about adventuring than about his own son and was a deadbeat abusive dad. Leia cared more about her career than she did about her son, according to Adam Driver and JJ Abrams. Adam said his parents were absent during Kylo's childhood, caught up in their own selfish agendas (Leia with her career; Han with smuggling).

Adam Driver said Kylo felt "abandoned" so obviously he did not get the love he wanted from his Uncle. Luke did not want Kylo, Leia basically foisted him off on him because she didn't love him and didn't want to deal with him any more. All Leia cared about was her political career.

I cannot imagine the damage that was inflicted on poor Ben as he watched his parents fight, his dad beat his mom, and the feelings of loneliness and abandonment he must have felt every day. Makes me cry just thinking about it.

 

i think it might be taking it rather too far to assume that by "how much we fought" Leia meant there was anything ever physically violent between them. they "fought" as in: argued (which we saw them do throughout the Original Trilogy). however much they loved one another, they were ideologically very different and i'm sure it led to many disagreements--but there's no evidence that there was any abuse (spousal or otherwise in the Solo-Organa household).

and it's also a stretch to say Leia "foisted" Ben on Luke. she was critically concerned for Ben's welfare and thought Luke could help with Force-related issues that she herself was likely not comfortable. we have no idea whatsoever what Luke thought of Ben at all.

Adam Driver's comments that Ben felt abandoned demonstrate a legitimate emotional hardship that Ben suffered, but you have to remember, too, that Ben was a child. he didn't necessarily understand the relationship between his parents or the reason behind their decisions.
it's likely true that they were not in his life in the way that he needed them, and it's very likely he felt rejected when he was sent away--but Han & Leia didn't do these things out of a lack of love and Leia's words in TFA should be the strongest proof of that:

she's the one who defends her son when Han says "he had too much Vader in him", she's the one who says "I want him back".
and Han isn't lying on the bridge when he says "come home, we miss you".

this is a family in crisis suffering a terrible tragedy. no doubt mistakes were made. parents aren't perfect.
but you're jumping to a lot of conclusions that aren't substantiated by the text or the film by suggesting that Han was abusive or that Ben wasn't wanted or loved.

Ben was corrupted by Snoke. Snoke is the monster that deserves your vitriol.
Han and Leia are victims of Snoke's manipulations too. he took their son from them.
he turned Ben against Luke. he filled Ben with hatred for his father.
Han and Leia's instability as a couple probably made Ben more vulnerable, but until we find out more, all we do know for sure is that they felt like they had exhausted their efforts to keep Ben safe--even though they failed.

 

Han and Leia are not victims. They made Ben who he is. If they had loved him or cared for him, he would not have needed to turn to Snoke for comfort. They failed as parents. They are to blame for Ben falling to the Dark Side, both Adam Driver and JJ Abrams says this.

I have taken a lot of film interpretation classes, and JJ Abrams very clearly implied Han was an abusive husband and father. There is no other way to interpret it. Leia mentions fighting a lot with Han. Kylo wouldn't hate Han for no reason. The only reason would be if Han had beat Leia and him as a child. We see Han's violent, murderous tendencies in the OT when he shoot Greedo and punches Lando in the face. He is a violent, hot tempered murderer. He is a criminal, an alcoholic and a smuggler. Kylo never had the father support he needed. The scene where he goes into the Falcon is Kylo thinking of how Han went there every time he left Leia and how he spent more time tinkering with his ship than with his own son.

I don't see any evidence Leia loved Ben or that she ever did. Adam Driver and JJ said she cared more about her political career than she did about her child. She probably spent all her time at the Senate, leaving poor Ben with nannies or droids. She was willing to murder her own son when she was leading the Resistance to take down Starkiller Base. Does that sound like a good mother to you? Meanwhile, Kylo tried to prevent Hux from firing on the Resistance because he knew his mother was on there. Ben loved his mother beyond everything, but she never loved him back.

If Luke had loved Ben, he wouldn't have had to go to Snoke for comfort. Luke obviously was a distant Uncle and viewed Ben more as a student than a nephew. Snoke was there to manipulate the situation, but Ben's feelings of loneliness and abandonment didn't come from nowhere - he was let down and unloved by every adult in his life, until Snoke came along.

 

sorry, there's just no evidence that Han was a drinker or a wife-abuser. none whatsoever.
Han and Leia loved each other and they loved their son.
all of the textual evidence points to this.
they just didn't control the situation; they made serious mistakes.

so maybe instead we can agree that Ben loved his parents, but felt betrayed by them.
because Snoke has abused Ben for his own purposes--and part of that abuse has been to isolate him and turn him against his family.
and since you've taken film interpretation coursework, perhaps you're familiar with the term "unreliable narrator"?
Ben's feelings of abandonment are legitimate, but they are also the perspective of a child who has been grossly manipulated.

also, Ben likely had already become dependent on Snoke long before Luke got involved.
and we still have no clue what the uncle/nephew relationship was.

 

Well, I agree with your last statement...what happened to Ben makes me cry! However, I am coming at that conclusion from a very different place. I think Kylo's sense of abandonment is a child's perspective on parents who were distracted and overwhelmed with Ben's needs. I'm sure with the amazing Force powers he had, he was a handful to deal with, any way you look at it. But that doesn't mean his assessment about his parents was entirely accurate--it probably reflects his feelings more than the facts. Of course we don't know this, but from the way Leia talks about Ben, and the way Han says they miss him--and especially the way he touches his face with forgiveness--it seems clear that they are not monsters. More likely they are parents who, despite good intentions, made mistakes in handling their very special, very needy son.

The tragedy, as @FN-3263827 says, is that Snoke took advantage of this unstable situation and insinuated himself into the equation, preying on Ben's fears and feelings, seducing him to the Dark Side and skewing his views and values.

And, like you, I hope Kylo Ren will be redeemed in the end.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 16, 2016 ---

@FN-3263827, we have to stop agreeing like this.

 

awww, thank you for stating all this so eloquently (and pass the Kleenex ffs!)

i have a sense that Ben was, indeed, rather needy (and rather special). and nobody really understood what to do with him.
and there is a special place in hell waiting for the fishy-eyeballed toilet monster.

 

I think that is a lot of it right there. No one understood him.

 

Oh, but I do believe he thinks he might just have found someone who does.

 

Or, to be precise, someone who will (would?)

 

I wouldn't put it past him not to understand why she doesn't get him now.

 

hahaha ~ no lie!

for all his inadequacy and isolation, he does give off a vibe that he's rather naively baffled why the world doesn't just conform around him.

 

But Finn is a he...

 

I wouldn't put it past him not to understand why Finn doesn't get him now either.

 

OK, so far it's taken me three days to get past this sentence:

"A single wind chime yodeling in the occasional breeze provided a tinkling counterpoint to the yelps of hidden sand-dwellers."​

I kept going off into fits of giggles. Today I just decided to skip right over it and continue. If I get tripped up with every ridiculous sentence I will never finish.

 

hahaha ~ yeah, i think we warned you that it's not well-written ~ you'll probably have a lot of those moments!

 

I remember reading ADF science fiction stuff in the '80s (Star Trek novels, probably) but I don't remember them being that bad. I guess as a kid I wasn't as discerning.

 

hahah ~ right? you kinda have to adjust expectations accordingly.
i haven't got a copy yet, but i suspect (just on the handful of snippets we've seen) that the junior version is more elegantly written.
maybe when all is said and done we'll get definitive editions like they did with the OT.
i would be interesting to revisit TFA when we know where all these characters end up.

 

Posting this just because.

 

stop that.

[hahahaha]

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2016 ---

@Choose Light ~ payback:

 

You are ruthless, ruthless!