SPECULATION OFFICIAL Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

If Han and Leia loved each other, why did they separate? They don't love each other. They're mad at each other for every scene they have together in TFA. Leia references fighting and Han abandoning her and her son. Han says "It wasn't all bad" = it was mostly bad. JJ Abrams said in the documentary they weren't right together. Poor Ben grew up in a deeply dysfunctional environment with his mother and father having screaming fights and Han beating Leia whenever he was home, and his ad being absent the rest of the time. No wonder he felt he had no choice but to seek solace in Snoke.

Han is a drug smuggler. Drug dealer = drug addict. He's an alcoholic and drug addict and a violent criminal. He kills the gang that comes after him simply for the crime they came after for money he owed them. He's a murderer. And people want to criticize Kylo for killing war criminals, but Han is 100x worse. In the Art of Star Wars book, the concept of Han is him in a seedy cantina drunk. When Luke and Ben first meet him in A New Hope he's in a cantina drinking. He's an alcoholic.

As Adam Driver said Leia was caught up in her "selfish agendas" of being a politician. She cared more about the lives of the citizens of the New Republic than she did about her own flesh and blood. What a cold hearted woman. She deserves to die. The lives of billions are on her shoulders, because if she had been a more attentive mother, Ben would not have fallen to the Dark Side. She didn't protect Ben from getting beat by Han, even though she had the Force, she chose not to train in it for selfish desires. She failed to protect Ben from Han's abuse.

Han and Leia are entirely to blame for Ben going Dark. JJ said so in the documentary.

Rey will save Kylo with the act of love, and Kylo will learn to be loved for the first time in his life. I fully believe Kylo's arc will be a love story with Rey.

 

they're profoundly heartbroken over the loss of their son. and they've missed each other.

actually, Leia says it was "pretty good".

again, nobody beat anybody. there's no evidence of this. that said, Han & Leia were very different people and clearly the household was not stable.
but that doesn't mean it was abusive.

logical fallacy.

unfounded character assassination.

speculative (never saw him actually drink in the movies). that said, yes, Han was a little on the shady side, always. but he wasn't "worse" than his son. they both have their problems.

he said they were selfish "too" ~ Ben was selfish (children are, naturally), and the parents were also selfish. no one was paying as close attention as they could have. that doesn't make them horrible people. they made mistakes.

you seem to have a lot of anger. direct it at Snoke.
Snoke is the one who has orchestrated all of this misery.

she failed to protect Ben from Snoke. he's the bad guy. not Han.

actually, he didn't. it's still Snoke's fault.

love story or not, we can still agree that Rey will help Ben through his fear and distrust toward a saner, Lighter existence.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2016 ---

@ReylovesKylo : i can well appreciate you taking up Ben's cause, but you're also taking up his rage against his family. he's angry at them because of what's happened to him, which was entirely outside of their control. but that's what happens when you're a child and you expect your parents to protect you.

they probably did the best they could under the circumstances, but Snoke made it impossible for them.

put the blame where it belongs. everything about TFA tells us that Han & Leia love their son and desperately want him to come home.
Han gave up his life trying to bring Ben back. his sacrifice was unconditional; he would have done anything for Ben (and did).

 

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2016 ---

That whole "It wasn't all bad was it" "Some of it was pretty good" was just so them.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2016 ---

Have you ever watched the Original Trilogy? Just wondering.

 

awww, i'm so glad we got to see them smile and hug each other one last time. they got to say goodbye at least.
they both had to know there was a high likelihood it would be the last time.
i think Leia believed that Han could get through to Ben, but even so, the odds were stacked so absurdly against them.
man, i'm going to miss Han [sniff].

 

That exchange felt so much like them indeed! I really liked it.

Han was my favourite one. I'll miss him too [sniff sniff]. But also, I'm glad that he had such an important role to play in this trilogy.
Also we can always rewatch the OT. It's great!

 

he'll always be with us (and hopefully for generations to come).

 

This moment:



always reminds me somehow of these kinds of moments:



Some of that Solo cockiness will live on in some form.

 

i'm kinda amazed, watching the OT.
i mean, they really are so different, but you can totally believe the family resemblance.
any scene in which Han has a look of consternation, he looks so much like Ren.

 

The resemblance is really there.
You have probably seen those, but I'm posting them for those who haven't.
The resemblance between Harrison and Adam is uncanny for people who are absolutely not related...

 

Thought I'd post this Kylo Ren-heavy video. I was really impressed with the editing.

(Also, if anyone wonders if TFA is violent, this answers the question. )

 

SPOILERS for Bloodline...






Han studied her for a few moments, then began to grin. “You realize—after three months on the same ship, we’re gonna kill each other.”

Leia leaned closer to the terminal so he would see the wickedness in her smile. “But won’t those three months be fun?”

She was thinking of a sublight run they’d undertaken together early in their marriage, which had begun with a great deal of bickering. However, all that time alone, with no one to interrupt them, had eventually led to much more enjoyable pursuits.

Given the timing, she was fairly sure those pursuits had directly led, some months later, to Ben’s birth.

“Oh, we’ll have fun.” Han brushed his fingers near the holocam, as if he could touch her face. “You better believe it.



I knew it!! No one would listen to me and I feel vindicated. This passage from Bloodline proves that Han and Leia had a dysfunctional relationship where they fought all the time that damaged Ben's psyche when he was a child. Han says when he and Leia spend time together they want to kill each other. No wonder poor Ben was damaged - his parents relationship severely impacted him. Han threatened to kill Leia! Imagine being a child and hearing your father threaten to kill your mother? Now you see where Ben gets it from....

I was right!

 

are you trolling? because this looks like trolling.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2016 ---

very interesting edit indeed! i love that superimposed moment of him swinging around (masked and unmasked).
lot of great creative fan vids out there!

 

I've been thinking about this for awhile and I've been wondering... when Rey probes Kylo's mind she says, he's afraid that he won't ever be as strong as Darth Vader. Why does Kylo think this? If he has studied Vader (and since he's a Sith fanboy it's a reasonable guess that he has) then he's heard of the things that Vader did, and his power. That would mean he also know that Vader never body immobilized anyone as Kylo did to Rey, nor did Vader ever freeze blaster rounds in mid flight as Kylo did. Sure he deflected some with his hand on Cloud City, but never froze them. Kylo is clearly doing things Vader was never shown doing... so why would Kylo think he wouldn't be powerful as Vader?

Would that be Snoke manipulating his insecurity to keep control over him?

 

Okay I've read the first 3 chapters of Bloodline and here are my thoughts:

---Leia is really into her work

---Leia doesn't even want to think about Vader as her father. It's almost like he's not an entity. It's Bail all the way. I totally believe they have lied to Ben about his heritage at this point. i am not even sure it's publicly known that Luke is her brother. (There is no evidence on this Luke bit, just a hunch).

---Leia has some version of SW "shell-shock" (the term used in the book), and it has made her obsessive about maintaining peace to the point that everything else in her life seems to come in second place, including her kid

---Ben has not turned. I can see that they are trying to mention Ben as little as possible, but when he is mentioned she has no "pang of pain" ... no "I can't even think about that" kind of moment. She is also way too interested in the esoteric gridlock problems of the Senate to have a kid who has turned to the dark side.
---She and Han do not have any kind of normal marriage. He seems to be gone all the time. And when she decides that she wants to quit and spend time with him, she is nervous that he is not going to really want her to come alone. He says that they will kill each other after being together on a ship for 3 months ... Three months? .... That's all ... I mean that makes me wonder how often Han really did leave ..... I just get visions of Han coming home, things going well for a month or two, but then the tension builds, they start arguing for the next month or two, and then like at the end of that 4th month, Han says "I'm out of here!" and slams the door ... of course to return a few weeks or months later and start the process over again ... ... But what a cluster for a kid. Good Lord! If I'm even half right, no wonder Ben/Kylo is anxious and has an inferiority complex. He wouldn've known what end was up half the time. I have experience practicing family law and I cannot tell you how bad this kind of pattern could be.

---Han and Leia are not that into Ben. Han and Leia (who don't seem to Skype with perfect regularity since he's at the track when she does and she says there are bad connections sometimes) have a whole conversation about her leaving the Senate to go traveling around the galaxy with Han and their son doesn't come up once. To me it looked kind of bad that no one said in this momentous decision conversation, "What do you think Ben will say? Have you told Ben? Did Ben call you lately?" their kid never comes up once. He really seems to be "out of sight, out of mind" for them at this point. Even Leia's memory of Ben is a baby has Han being a little unsure about even having a kid, and her teasing him about grandchildren. There is no mention of how Ben was beautiful or anything like that. At this point it fits what JJ and Adam said to a "T" IMO.

---Finally, Leia has a temper. She really loses it too quickly with that Centrist guy, especially since she needs to work with him and since she went to his office to get him unscripted. The more she held it together the more he would say, but she blows it because of her emotional reaction to his Empire collection. I'm not saying she's not entitled to her reaction, but she doesn't keep her cool ... kind of like her son. She has her mouth. Kylo has his destructive lightsaber.

 

@ReylovesKylo: maybe use a spoiler tag?

he's not afraid of lacking power, he's afraid of lacking fortitude: strength of heart/will.

of course he's physically powerful with the Force and he knows it; it's his mind that's weak (and he knows that too).

 

I didn't read your post because I don't want to get spoiled for the book. Chances are others feel the same way. Once we can all read it and deduce things for ourselves, then a real discussion can happen.

 

But...

He is also aware that ultimately Anakin rejected and betrayed the darkside... and not for power, but for compassion Doesn't that demonstrate lack of fortitude/will?
If he studied Sith lore (as it seems) he would presumably be aware of the Sith rule of 2 and how 1 ultimately became a master... and the fact that Vader never became a master... where is the Strength in being a perpetual apprentice? I mean I thought maybe someone would try to make the case that it was Vader who forged an empire with his will... but he didn't... Palpatine did. Sith Apprentices are little more than tools to their masters... no less a weapon to cut down opposition than a light saber... and that's what Vader was... one of the galaxy's most dangerous? Sure. But ultimately, still just a weapon, still merely used and applied according to someone else's will. Where is the demonstration of mental toughness or strength of will in that?

What exhibition of strength of will and fortitude would Kylo be aspiring to? I don't see it. I can see him aspiring to Vader's power as we all know he had the highest Midichlorian measurement ever... even beyond Yoda... why wouldn't Kylo be aspiring to that?

 

you're assuming Kylo Ren's motives are Sith.

yeah, he wants to finish what Vader started, but possibly that it has nothing really to do with an acquisition/exercise of the kind of power the Sith vied for. i would argue Ren believes he has "nobler" reasons in mind (i.e. balancing the Force in the galaxy, which was Anakin's prophesied purpose).

i don't see Ren aspire for power. nothing in TFA shows him actually jockeying for it.
he's quite contentedly subservient to Snoke, actually; and not in a Sithy way--he's naively dependent, views Snoke as a mentor, makes no obeisances.
he does have some bull-headed ideas of his own that border on disobedience, but he thinks Snoke is serving his own goals (likely twisted by Snoke anyway, but built from a foundation of some truth of his destiny).
you could argue the exception that he was trying to draw power by killing his father, but he's actually quite honest about his intentions there:
it's more about concentrating his focus on his purpose without the distraction of his sentimentality.
this is how Snoke has compelled him to do it: kill Han and you'll be free of your conflict.
that's not actually about power over others, it's about power over himself, the purpose of which is ultimately to fulfill a perceived purpose/destiny for which he currently lacks the discipline and, again, fortitude.

 

Well, technically Vader did destroy his Master, so fulfilled the terms of Sith graduation to Sith Master, he just wasn't really a Sith anymore at that point. Bit of a grey area really. I admit I have problems regarding how successful Vader was as a Sith, or even as a Jedi.

The thing Vader and Anakin seemed to have in common was bringing order to the governing of the galaxy.

So Kylo's fear is that he won't be as strong as Darth Vader...

I looked up the definition of strength to see if I could add some insight to what this might be and found the following:

1.

the quality or state of being strong; bodily or muscular power; vigor.

2.

mental power, force, or vigor.

3.

moral power, firmness, or courage.

4.

power by reason of influence, authority, resources,numbers, etc.

5.

number, as of personnel or ships in a force or body:

a regiment with a strength of 3000.

6.

effective force, potency, or cogency, as of inducements or arguments:

the strength of his plea.

7.

power of resisting force, strain, wear, etc.


And then I tried to think in what ways I could consider Darth Vader to be strong.

The more obviously one is;
* strong in the Force.

Other, perhaps more contraversial, areas that demonstrated a form of strength, though I know there are other things are at work too. I am merely engaging in a thought exercise to see where it goes;
* It required strength to consider the dark side as an option to deal with his problems.
*It took strength to overturn all his Jedi teachings to embrace Sithology, and commit acts like the massacre of the Younglings
*It took strength to face his Jedi Master.
*It took strength to keep on living after becomming horribly maimed at Mustafar.
*It took strength to keep on living after the death of Padme.
*It took strength to turn on his Master at the end to save Luke.

Oh dear, not sure this is helping at all. What one may view as stregth, another may view as weakness and visa versa. I'm just realizing Anakin/Vader is just as complex and hard to understand as Kylo Ren. So how would Kylo consider Vader to be strong? It seems a bit to hard to say for sure at this point, and much easier to understand why he fears his own lack of strength.

 

He did ultimately destroy Palpatine, but I agree he wasn't a Sith when he did, and he was moved into action by a Light Side motivation (Love/Compassion). Kylo would consider this weakness.

Kylo and Vader were both used as weapons to bring order (I agree) but in each case it's another Puppet Master actually shaping events.

At first I even considered, maybe the force of will that Anakin showed was killing the younglings, he had full on Sith eye then.

But Kylo wiped out the Jedi at the new Academy. As much as I hate all the talk about a redemption arc for Kylo, they are literally following the same path. Fear, providing an opening for exploitation by a Dark Sider, the weilding of great power, the embrace and use of hatred against enemies, the pull to the light, the rescue just before death by their masters, all that's missing is the redemption.

Of all the examples you provided, each one I saw as strength in the Force or motivated by fear and hatred (I know it's subjective - we'll all see different motivations). Still it's difficult to pin down what Kylo is viewing as the strength that he thinks he doesn't or won't have beyond my speculation that this is a reflection of how Snoke is manipulating him. That Snoke sensed it was a fear and has actively nurtured and exploited that fear for his own use.