SPECULATION OFFICIAL Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

Oh happy day! You've given me a chance to trot out one of my little pet theories again...



Why is Kylo alone on the Finalizer and not attending the big party below on the SKB surface? Why is the melancholy music seemingly connected to Kylo himself? He is maybe worried that his mom might be getting blown up along with the billions of others?

The music is the key here, I think. Interestingly, bits of the Starkiller theme are also in the "Torn Apart" track. A few bars of the Starkiller theme play at the beginning of it, but more importantly, immediately after Kylo Ren kills Han.

(Check it out at 1:59-2:25.)

My theory is that Starkiller Base is a metaphor for Kylo Ren, which the tragic music symbolizes. Like the planet, he's been taken from his natural, "Light" state (presumably as a child though Snoke's seduction) and turned into a weapon of mass destruction by the First Order. Consider the light imagery we see in connection with Han's death, and how it ties closely to Kylo Ren.

• The light of the sun is sucked into SKB, and when it goes out, Kylo Ren murders Han.
• Then, when Rey kicks Kylo Ren's butt in the duel, the planet too is imploding.
• And (not to be forgotten!) in the end SKB turns into a sun.

Make of it what you will!

 

Interesting theory. And very good observations about Kylo not being on the planet and not being a part of the Propaganda Scene. He really doesn't seem to buy into the FO mantra about order. Though it isn't said, I have to believe that he knew his mother was ok (perhaps through the Force) was a part of the Resistance and therefore not on Hosnian prime. But still a good theory.

I am really not a fan of the redemption arc for Kylo (because it's already been done with Anakin) but there are many ways I can see this being alluded to. I still think that we only empathize now with Kylo, because he hasn't become cold and calculating and is still emotionally vulnerable. He has the feel of a guy TRYING to play the role of a bad guy but not really having it in his heart. I think over the next couple of episodes maybe that changes.

And even though it's not my preference, I could see where a confrontation between Luke and Snoke, forces Kylo to choose again, and this time he chooses light. In that way SW fans could continue to have a Skywalker without Force Fitting Rey into the family tree. Of course if they make Rey Luke's daughter, I think this scenario I just gave is a non-starter.

p.s. And you're absolutely right, that snippet of music is exactly the same one that's played during the SK Base discharge that destroyed Hosnian Prime.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2016 ---

He could make a pilgrimage to Korriban though... I mean if he could somehow get there, it would be like Luke studying at the Jedi Temple. It's theoretically possible that Kylo could try to create the "New Sith". I don't think they'll take this route, mind you, but it seems at least theoretically possible. The door isn't shut on Sith-dom/Sith-ology forever if they want to resurrect it in a future movie.

 

it's been suggested that this is why he puts up more of a fight the second time around--because he might know his mother is in the Illeenium system.
it's not much of a fight, but it's as close as he ever gets to objecting to anything Snokie-poke says.
and therefore also presumed to be part of why he tells Han "it's too late".
and also part of why he kills Han.

i don't know if i believe he's capable of working through the repercussions at this level given all of his distraction and generally disordered thinking, but it's an interesting observation.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2016 ---

i really like this as a metaphor, though i worry a bit about the implosion part ~ hahaha
there are a number of ways to spin this metaphor (and not all of them positive).
but for the moment i'm going to continue to cling to the hope that something wonderful can emerge from the ashes of something so corrupted.

 

A life-giving sun being born is a symbol of hope--something new and good coming from the "ashes" of something given over to evil. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

Studying Kylo's face after he slays Han Solo... and... I don't know. It doesn't seem like he has peace of mind afterwards. Maybe I'm being unrealistic here, but he seems like he doesn't have any more peace of mind after than when he does kill Han.

Realistically, yes, anyone would be emotionally compromised in such a situation, but up to this point I think we're supposed to believe that for Kylo the dangling relationship with his father was one of his demons, an obstacle on his way to the Darkside. Yet he doesn't look relieved after Han's death, quite the opposite... as Han falls, Kylo has the look of someone questioning if what he did was right.

Is this a misread on my part?

 

i think it's safe to say he's definitely having an "oh shoebuttons, what did i just do?" moment.
and even if he's not freaking out over the actual fact of killing his father (if he's suffering that much disconnect), he's definitely freaking out over the fact that it didn't solve anything for him internally.
and this is stated so explicitly in the script/book.

 

For someone so powerful in the Force, Kylo seems so easily swayed. Each time I watch the scene I think of how close Han came to talking him out of this whole First Order thing. He was so close to just giving it up and going home with Han.

 

well that goes back to the discussion of "why does Ren need strength?" doesn't it?
he's emotionally/psychologically weak.

and i agree, that bridge scene really shows how fragile he really is.
it really could have gone either way because some part of him wants so desperately to go home.
but he doesn't trust his family or his own instincts because of how Snoke has twisted him.

 

He's emotional and he regards that as weak, but again, he knows at his final moment, Vader choose emotion. And he doesn't consider Vader weak.

He's psychologically compromised; he's unsure of himself. You think the stature he hopes to achieve is to be emotionally stable, I think the statue he hopes to achieve is to be feared. But I suppose the two are not mutually exclusive. They might even be complimentary, the stronger he gets the more confident he gets, the less uncertain he becomes, and the stronger he becomes yet again.

 

he considers Vader's choice to have been weak, absolutely.
he and Snoke discuss it specifically in the book.
Vader was laid low by one moment of weakness in an otherwise "exemplary" life.

i don't think his only goal is stability. he just needs stability to fulfill his destiny.
you think that destiny is about power and fear, i think it's about order (in the most literal sense).
and no, perhaps these things aren't mutually exclusive, but i'll maintain that power and fear is about personal glory, whereas order is idealistic; it's about the good of the whole.

i don't know whether Ren will go power-hungry or whether he has secret ambitions of this nature.
he doesn't show them in TFA, and he's pretty "altruistic" (for lack of a better word given his altruism is so warped) in the book, so we'll have to wait and see.

 

The word the novelization uses to indicate Vader's weakness is "sentiment." Snoke goes on to say in this same conversation with Kylo Ren, "Such a foolish error of judgment. A momentary lapse in an otherwise exemplary life. Had Lord Vader not succumbed to emotion at the crucial moment--had the father not killed the son--the Empire would have prevailed."

On a side note, I also noticed that KR claims he will not be seduced by the Light before he finds out that the droid is with his father and before he hears about the test he'll be facing, which is different from the movie--although of course he still claims Han means nothing to him after receiving this news.

(How handy it is that some people who shall remain nameless twisted my arm to read this thing...)

 

there's some interesting things in there, indeed. if nothing else it shows more of the intent in terms of the character's motivations and demonstrates behavior we don't see that clearly in the film.
in the film, Kylo Ren is like a shark; just straight to the blood and yet diverted by every fat fish that crosses his path.
in the book he's a lot more thoughtful (and gawdawful chatty about it ~ ha!), but i think it also shows in a different way how much he's at the whims of the circumstances around him and his rather mindless and befuddled loyalties toward Snoke.

that @Obi-Wan Solo is something else with all that arm-twisting, yeah? hahaha

 

K don't think that he was questioning it...he literally seemed to know I'm his heart that what he was doing wasn't right tans thought it would feel good after but it made him feel bad if anything.

 

I believe she had a partner in this dastardly crime...

This is his face after the murder:



I guess I would interpret that as surprise? disappointment? In the book he is "stunned" by the act and literally falls to his knees (before he gets shot), but I suppose that was probably too visually straightforward for Abrams.

Changing tacks slightly, I am increasingly baffled by what Snoke is hoping to accomplish with Kylo Ren. Sometimes it seems that he wants a total Dark-sider, but he claims (in the novel) to want a perfect focal point of Dark and Light in his acolyte. But he has to know that this guy is an emotional trainwreck, which makes him a very powerful loose cannon. So if he makes Kylo Ren increasingly volatile by pushing all his Light-Dark conflict buttons, what does he accomplish? Is Snoke just that confident in his emotional/spiritual domination over him? Does he just figure that when Kylo Ren gets too crazy or hard to handle he'll snuff him out, and he's just going to use him until then (as Han suggests)? But if that's true, why not try to keep him a little more stable, so that he lasts longer?

Obviously I need to sign up for some evil overlord classes so I can figure this strategy out.

 

He seems more messed up after killing Han, than before. I felt the same about him watching from afar, we don't see his hands are kind of clenched when they are getting ready to blow up the Hosian System. Not sure they really wanted us to know his feelings on the matter.

 

my theory with Snoke is that he's deliberately left Kylo Ren a total abject mess because that actually makes him easier to control for the moment.
you give that kid one whiff of courage/agency/confidence and he immediately becomes a threat.

a lot of people are speculating that Snoke wants his body to inhabit and i think that's very likely a possible endgame, so Snoke is just using him until he has strength enough or power enough or whatever to make the transfer. possibly first he wants Ren to get rid of Luke.

so i don't think Snoke gives a rat's ass about Ren's instability in the larger picture. and if he's mad at Ren in viii it'll be because he nearly got himself killed and wrecked that nice face of his--moreso than being the cause of Starkiller blowing up or letting the scavenger get away, etc.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 28, 2016 ---

his body language is interesting to track through the movie. he's pretty well unraveled by the end.

 

Totally wrong. According to the first chapters of "Bloodline" Han and Leia got married and then Ben was born:

Spoiler: Extract from Bloodline

 

Of course he doesn't care about Kylo Ren's instability for Kylo Ren's sake, but surely Snoke cares about it for his own sake, so that he has a more useful weapon? Surely if Snoke had him destroying the new generation of Jedi he has faced at least one big test already. Was that test more "successful"? Did it make him more malleable? I have to suppose so, because the tests Kylo Ren faced in TFA--getting the map from the girl and killing his father--had the effect of fraying Kylo Ren to the breaking point. In fact, you could argue that they lead him out of Snoke's control when he not only fails to make any further attempt to get the map but also tries to recruit Rey for his own student rather than straight-up capturing her, as Snoke ordered. I can't imagine that Snoke would have set him up for those tasks (especially killing Han, since Snoke didn't seem to have much insight into Rey) if he thought he was going to break down so fabulously.

So either Snoke doesn't really need a stable weapon in Kylo Ren (which he really seems to), or he completely underestimated his ability to keep it together. But how could anyone who has known this kid from birth (or early childhood) imagine he would be able to handle this? (Heck, WE figured it out in just 2 hours! )

 

hahaha ~ you're right!

i do think something about Ren's internal conflict feeds Snoke somehow, though ~ because yes, why else would he tolerate it? he's got a mess for a pupil. a total mess. and it's possible Ren wasn't nearly this messy until the events of TFA (in fact, i'd speculate that's likely the case).

Ren breaks down partly over Rey's mere existence in the world and then as well over his family drama (starting with Luke and ending with his father).
we have only a few clues that he's habitually unstable (like the fear in Mitaka's eyes and his confession to Han about being in pain).

so it could go either way, perhaps:

• we either saw him uncharacteristically melt down in TFA,
• or he's always in a "state" but typically holds it together better.

with the former, perhaps Snoke wasn't prepared for it; with the latter, Snoke is trying to control it and miscalculated.

or, more likely, Snoke deliberately wanted Ren to fail ~ because Ren's failures bind him all the more closely to Snoke given his dependence on his wise supreme leader (oh gag barf). hahaha

 

This does make a lot of sense if he's some kind of Force power-conflict vampire, and not using Kylo Ren exclusively as a weapon.

This works too if the conflict is the key to his usefulness to Snoke rather than a detriment (or if the destabilizing is secondary).

Just when I thought that fishy-eyed toilet monster couldn't get any creepier...