Official Leia Organa Episode VIII Discussion Thread

The thing is, Leia never knew "good man" Anakin. The only direct interactions that she had with her father was as Vader, and the were all negative. That's one reason why I feel like, in the context of the OT, the retcon in ROTJ is pretty meaningless. We don't really get to hear her thoughts on the reveal and she and Vader never get a scene together after it, which was disappointing. One of the little details from Bloodline that I found to be a nice touch was

Spoiler

Leia confirming that no only did Vader torture her onboard the DS in ANH, but that it apparently went on for hours, which is even more horrifying.

So she has no reason to buy into her father's "redemption." Luke may look at it in the more pseudo-spiritual Jedi way, but Leia doesn't.

By contrast, she presumably remembers a time when Ben was a nice guy.

Spoiler

The few times that he reminisces about him in the book paint him as a pretty normal and well-adjusted kid, and she doesn't seem to suspect that anything is amiss with him even in the present-day scenes.

Plus he's her son. So her wanting to believe that they can still reach him is totally understandable.

What will be interesting to see is, how does Kylo murdering Han effect her POV moving forward?

 

Yes, I think when Leia begins to consider that Anakin may not have started out bad, she's finally on her way to reconciling (though maybe not fully accepting just yet) who her father was. I don't want to say too much more for fear of spoilers, but I think this step she takes is huge and will have had a direct effect on how she deals with Ben's turn when it happens, and how she deals with it going forward into TFA.

 

Ok, so can we assume Leia learned about Snokes extended influence at some point after the events in Bloodline, or is there just a supreme case of the denials going on in that book? She obviously realised at some point that Ben was going a bit dark. So did she learn about Snokes influence concurrently, or did she just think for a while that Ben was a bit Vadery before she went, 'nah, it's that dam fishy eyed toilet monster corrupting my son, not my dodgy gene line.'

So there comes a time when Leia sees Ben going dark, and has attributed this to Snokum, but she then thinks she can sheild Ben from Snoke and stop his descent into darkness, and thinks Han's involvement would only hurt the situation and hurt Han? So how do you guys think she sheilds both of them, and would those actions have helped or hindered Ben's descent? She must have had some significant contact with Ben in year 6 before TFA then, and thus by extension, Luke? I wonder how this may contribute to the Mother/Son face off, and/or the face off between the twins, assuming they happen.

And I also don't get why Leia says that Han isn't very patient or understanding, he comes across as very patient and understanding, especially in Bloodline. That sounds like a bit of a cop out on Leia's behalf to me.

 

MAY BE BLOODLINES SPOILERS BELOW:





I am going with she found out the full story about Snoke after Ben turned. However, that doesn't mean she didn't have any idea he could have been after Ben. (1) She could be in denial about Snoke and the influence he had on Ben, or (2) she could think that it's been dealt with and Snoke's influence was not only minimal but completely over with (hence why she doesn't give it a thought in the book)...or (3) she could not have realized it at all in the book, and only put the pieces together after Ben turns (this assumes that she doesn't know Snoke's true nature). I like the second option best, because it explains most logically (if it can be explained) why she didn't tell Han.

But does she realize during the book that Ben was going a bit dark? That seems up in the air to me. There certainly seems to be a tone of foreboding to when she thinks she can't mother him and Han can't mentor him...but is that simply because they miss him? Because they sent him to Luke merely because he was he was FS and needed to be trained? Or for darker reasons?

TBH, I don't know how to reconcile this, but only in part because I don't know how much Leia understood about Snoke. (The other part is me going--story group, get your details right, please! Surely there's a master document somewhere that spells all this out in sequence!) This will require more rumination.

In regard to Han's patience, I can only assume that he wasn't as patient with Ben as he was with Leia, especially if he was dealing with Ben's burgeoning Force powers that Han didn't really understand. That would have been very intimidating for a non-FS dad, I would think.

 

Oh yeah, I was just thinking about that part of the book. As Master Yoda told her dad: "Fear is the path to the dark side". And for Anakin, that fear was fueled by the love he felt for Padme - at least how we see it in ROTS.

Alexandra Bracken makes a really neat job describing that scene in "The Princess, The Scoundrel and The Farm Boy."

Spoiler: The Princess, The Scoundrel and The Farm Boy

Darth Vader didn't keep her waiting long. Leia supposed the opportunity to watch her squirm was too much for him to resist. She was, however, surprised that he was willing to do the dirty work himself.
The door hissed open and his dark shape swept in, followed closely by two security officers. The two men fell into place on either side of the door, their gazes fixed on the ceiling. For a long, terrible second, there was no sound in the small cell beyond the steady wheeze of Vader's respirator. A cold drip of alarm ran down Leia's back.
"I hope you find your quarters adequate, Princess."
Leia raised her chin. No fear. No breaking. No screaming. Prove it to yourself, she thought. Prove that you deserve to be one of them. This was for her father and the Rebellion he had helped establish, the one she would continue to help build.
"I demand to be released and given a formal trial," she said.
"Spare me your indignation," Vader said. "I've neither the time nor the patience for it."
A strange sound-a beeping that sizzled through the air like a bolt of static-made the hair rise on Leia's neck. Vader stepped aside, allowing a spherical droid to float in behind him. It bobbed slightly as it came toward her, its glossy black exterior shot through with silver and punctuated by a red eye light.
"What-?" she began, pressing back against the wall of her cell.
Gleaming silver blades and rods rose out of the droid's shell, but Leia's eyes were focused on the syringe that emerged from its side and began filling with some kind of liquid. A wicked-looking needle, long as her hand, was aimed directly at her.
"No!" she shouted. Leia knew what that was-an interrogation droid. They were illegal, considered too inhumane for use. Stars, she was an idiot. Nothing was too inhumane for the Empire.
"This is your last chance, Your Highness," Vader warned. "If you will not tell me where the plans are and where I'll find the Rebels' fortress, I will force the answers from you."
Leia's breath came in rapid bursts. Holding out against interrogation had been part of her self-defense training, but this-this was so much worse than anything she could have imagined. Pain and humiliation could be pushed away, boxed up inside, but a truth serum?
There was nowhere to run. Leia bolted toward the door, but Vader's arms locked around her, swinging her back into the interrogation droid's path. The pain that lanced through her arm as the needle punctured her skin and the serum seeped into her system was unbearable.
She collapsed back against the wall, shaking her head. It felt light enough to float away. Her vision blurred at the edges, making her feel as if she were walking through an early morning fog on the palace grounds, the soft sunlight warming her skin-but no, no, that wasn't right. Leia wasn't on Alderaan.
A voice floated to her through the clouds. "Your Highness, you're safe. You can trust me."
Leia shook her head, turning her face against something cold, hard, smooth. Cell.
She was in a cell. On the-on the-Why couldn't she hold on to a thought? Her pulse was pounding in her ears again. She pressed her hands against them. Not safe. Not safe. Not safe.
Death Star... the words floated up to the front of her mind. That's where she was. Not on Alderaan. The thought made pain streak through her. Made her dizzy.
Why wouldn't it stop? Where was her father? She wanted her father-
"I'm with the Rebel Alliance," the voice continued. "I need to know what you did with the Death Star plans. You must tell me. You must trust me."
There was a bad taste in her mouth, a pounding in her skull. Leia was so sure she was going to be sick, she bent at the waist, ignoring the way fire seemed to stream through her blood. Words popped like bubbles in her mind.
Interrogation. Death. Star. Vader.
"We need them, Leia! Tell me where to find the plans!"
"L-leave me alone." Interrogation. Rebels. Can't tell the truth. Don't tell the truth.
Antilles. Tantive IV. Alderaan. Senate. Galaxy.
Slowly, as if stretching after a long sleep, her mind started to sharpen. Leia remembered where she was, even with her head feeling light enough to float
away, her lips loose enough to spill every secret she protected. Trained. She'd been trained. You'll be forced to give information, her instructor had said, truthful information. But it doesn't have to be current information. There's always a way to give a truth that's related but not the answer they want. Find a connection.
"Where are the plans?" The voice exploded in her ears, loud enough to make Leia cringe.
"I don't have them!" she shouted. "I don't have them!"
"Where are they?"
"I don't have them!" she repeated.
"Where did you send them? Where is the Rebel base?"
Without warning, the fire in Leia's body was blown out, replaced by an icy grip. Fear wound its way through her, snaking down into her stomach. The feeling was so different from the light-headed dream of the serum. There was... power behind each of his words. They nudged at her. They prodded as sharply as any knife. So Leia did the only thing she could-she pulled back. Physically, toward the wall. Mentally, to a place the voice couldn't find her. An unfamiliar warmth wrapped around her, a protective blanket that didn't let any of the darkness nudge through.
The freezing pressure on her mind was thrown back. The rumbling voice made a sound of surprise and was quiet for a long moment. "If you do not tell me where to find the Rebels, lives will be lost! All of the Rebel deaths will be on your head!"
"Leave me alone!" Leia repeated, throwing her arms up over her head.
"Your father wants you to trust us," the voice said, softer now. "He wants you to tell us where to find the Rebels. He's worried about you. He wants you to come home."
"Alderaan is my home." That was true.
"Are you a member of the Rebel Alliance?"
Leia swallowed the disgusting taste in the back of her mouth, blinking as the cell began to take shape again around her. Vader was a black blur against the crimson ceiling lights. Not safe.
"I'm Princess Leia Organa," she said. "I'm the senator from Alderaan."
And that was the truth.
Vader stepped back, watching her as still and silently as any poisonous snake about to strike. He began to turn, signaling something to the security officers. Leia slumped back against the metal cot in relief. They were leaving. It was over.
"Careful," Vader warned. "If you continue to resist, soon you will be neither."
The cell door hissed shut behind him.

Especially if he was hoping his son to be a flyboy like him.

 

By the way, happy belated Mother's day.

 

@PrincessLeiaCB3 your avatar, i cannot handle

 

we know he was going Dark or had shown some disconcerting propensity earlier on because in TFA Leia specifically says that this was why she sent Ben to Luke. i feel like this is why is so important to know when that happened. if he was already 20, then we're dealing with a whole different dynamic than if he was 10.

my feeling from Bloodline is that Snoke isn't even part of Leia's landscape (or else, yeah, no mother was ever so deep in denial or lulled into a false sense of security). this is why in my initial read of the book i felt so aggravated. she knows there is something problematic with Ben. something serious enough to send him to Luke, which means she's either convinced herself that Luke's got everything under control or she doesn't believe the problem is as serious as she thought.

option three, which i've decided to go with because i can't stand the thought of Leia being that oblivious: Ben's either adapted and appears to be doing well with Luke, or at least he's faking it in a way that has fooled everyone. therefore she has no reason to worry. either way, news of Darth Vader being his grandfather destroys his peace of mind and/or his desire to hide his anger/fear/grief, and he finds comfort in Snoke, who's just happily waiting to gather him up. and either Snoke has always been there, controlling him from the start, or Snoke was always waiting in the wings for his weakest moment.

i agree with @Choose Light and @PrincessLeiaCB3; Han probably had a lot of fear with regard to Ben's power (Vader tortured him too, after all), and they didn't relate. also, we see Han mentoring girls mostly ~ it might have been hard for him to be that for a headstrong boy.
fathers and sons are complicated to be sure.

 

I think that people are reading too much into "difficulties" in Han and Ben's relationship. I didn't really get that impression at all really, nor that he was
"intimidated" by his son being FS. His wife and brother-in-law were both FS after all.

What this book did do is seem to dispel the notion that Han and Leia had some kind of dysfunctional/difficult marriage. It's an unconventional one to be sure, but overall it seems quite loving and happy. Heck after like 23 years, they're still hot for each other, which is saying something.

And in regards to the Snoke thing, a few things need to be noted:

-Alan Dean Foster has said that the novelization is based off of an earlier version of the script, and that some things had been changed along the way.

-We see the conversation in TFA, and Leia says nothing about Snoke watching Ben from a young age. Merely that he "seduced our son to the DS."

-Pablo Hidalgo has said that when the novelization and film contradict each other, film continuity wins.

So it's also possible that the whole "Snoke was influencing Ben since he was young" idea was simply dropped at some point, we'll see I guess.

 

Just seeing this. Blue Milk Special always seems to go where my head sometimes goes, except with the chainsmoking Princess. I love how in Bloodlines she points all this out to Casterfo, all the things personally done to her by the may who turned out to be her father.

 

the novelization and TFA don't contradict in the dialogue in the scene between Han and Leia.
while yes, it may be changed some future film, it's currently canon.

 

I'm wondering if Snoke was around and relatively low level member of the New Republic. The "napkin bombing" idea came directly for Rian Jonhson so I wonder if he has plans to tie that to Snoke somehow.

 

The actual wording in TFA is:

HAN: There's too much Vader in him.
LEIA: That's why I wanted him to train with Luke.​

So, yes, she felt she had to send him to Luke, probably either because he was already showing signs of leaning to the Dark, or because her fear that he would be like Vader drove her to send him to Luke. But she doesn't mention Snoke until later in the conversation...so maybe he wasn't the direct reason she sent Ben to Luke...? Possibly? I guess?

 

I don't think there's any contradiction between Bloodline and what Leia said about Snoke in the TFA novelization. What she said was that he was watching Ben from an early age. In Bloodline, he's a grown man and he's with Luke. Maybe Leia didn't have any reason to worry any longer.

Here's Pablo:

@pablohidalgo @claudiagray Hope there is good reason for no Snoke in Bloodline beyond secrecy. Why would Leia never think of him?

@Darth_Hound @claudiagray There is. Won't get into it here, though. Thanks for the Q.

 

I strongly support this piece of theory.

They are both strong-headed, stubborn and have their own personality, but they are clearly mad in love for each other.

Lol I find it funny how they use the "chainsmoking" Princess, but in some way this could be used to pinpoint the inner strength of Princess Leia from a GFFA. And at that point I really wonder how that page in my book copy has no tearstains at all lol.

 

"chainsmoking?" Did I miss something? ?

 

Well, along all the webcomics from Blue Milk Special, Leia appears as a smoking, naughtier version of the Leia we know from a GFFA (I guess more in line with the real Carrie Fisher back then lol).

 

lol I bet she's smoking some Death Sticks .

 

It does make them quite funny.

--- Double Post Merged, May 11, 2016, Original Post Date: May 11, 2016 ---

Here is the post I was thinking of, look at the bottom. http://www.bluemilkspecial.com/comic/ill-explain-later/