Problems with the Sequel Trilogy So Far...

I think they should have been more faithful to George Lucas’ outlines to be honest. Obviously they should make changes and let it evolve....

The problem is that TFA set up too many questions that it made it hard for someone else to answer it in a cohesive way. For example, Luke’s old lightsaber. what was the purpose of it coming back again?

Han’s relationship with his son was murky and vague. The problem with TFA was that they decided to make Han a smuggler again, which makes no sense given his change in the OT. Whereas Luke’s change in TLJ made more sense because he was getting older. Han becoming a man child because his son became a gangbanger does not ring true. We also don’t know his relationship with Ben because it’s so vague and the build up is not well done so when Han died I felt nothing.

The other problem is the First Order. We didn’t need to know how the Empire came about because the OT established an archetypal conflict Galactic Empire vs Rebels. So now comes the First Order and what’s the difference? It doesn’t feel that much different. Just a different name slapped on it.

With Snoke, I didn’t need for him to be Plagueis(though that would’ve been cool), but the Emperor was defeated so it would have been more emotionally resonant if we got more motivation from him before they killed him(a choice I still like a lot by the way).

We didn’t know the backstory of the Emperor, but we knew his relationship with Vader and his motivations. In Empire, we knew he wanted Luke to join him and Vader. Also, his name is the Emperor and Emperor means dictator. It’s an easy dynamic.

So with Snoke, there has to be an explanation because otherwise it’s just Emperor 2.0 and not as interesting. So there’s a big continuity gap.

Prequels(flawed as they are) and yes it was the backstory, introduced new conflict which shows that SW doesn’t always need to be empire vs rebels. Sure the execution in the PT was sloppy but the Clone Wars developed it much better.

With Rey, Finn, and Poe, I still feel I don’t quite know them that well. Part of that is that the TFA didn’t let Finn process his decisions to defect and with Rey, everything was clouded in a big mystery. With Poe, he disappears and shows up for no reason at the end.

So at this point, it’s more that I don’t think the dynamics of these new characters is as well established as the OT.

 

I've been lurking here since the ST was announced and finally decided to throw in my 2 cents on this topic.

The plot above is roughly what I had envisioned as well for the ST. My opinion is Disney felt a need to establish new characters right away instead of letting them naturally enter the story and eventually take the lead. The problem with this is that we are dealing with the most popular franchise in the history of cinema. The audience enters the story excited to hear about what happens next for 3 of the most popular characters of all time. Instead they find that the characters are relegated to supporting status. I feel all the hate and the backlash is centered around this concept.

If it were mine to do, I would have started Episode 7 with the OT characters as the leads with our new characters supporting, in 8 I would have had them on equal footing and then in 9 I would have passed the torch and let our new heroes save the day. By doing it this way they could have subtly set up the franchise for years to come without going to great lengths to deconstruct the OT characters just to "get them out of the way". Leia and Han would never abandon one another and Luke would never abandon his duties.

 

Great post.

There was so much potential for a new story- traitors in the republic, fallout from Vader’s identity becoming public, distrust of jedi, dark side cults, etc.


They could have also handled Rey in an original way by making her a solo who wanted nothing to do with war, Jedi, etc.

So at 15 or so, she essentially steals the falcon and runs away.

The first two trilogies gave us a hero itching for adventure and finding their place in the galaxy....it would have been interesting to see a reluctant hero who knows her place and wants nothing of it.

Either way, the current films have given no good reason for Rey to want to be a Jedi. All through TFA she just wants to go home. In a matter of days, she is stealing Jedi texts.

When TFA ended, I reasoned that maybe she wants revenge for Han. But nope, in a matter of days she is leaving to redeem the stranger (to her) who killed han.

Plus, Rey is perfect. Perfect in the sense that she would already never seek revenge, etc,

I’m just shocked at how bad these films get the more you think about it.

And I really had faith in rian, I can’t beleive how bad TLJ is.

 

Well I actually like TLJ on its own, its the trilogy itself I am not sure what the story is. I actually liked the Ren and Rey relationship. I guess she starts to feel sorry for him because they were both abandoned by their parents in a way. But yea I mean it was a little flimsy that she so badly wants to go redeem Ren. If she had been a Skywalker maybe it would have been more logical. It’s more of the fact that Rey wasn’t established as just another person. They tried so hard to make everyone guess who she is.

I’m more curious to see how RIan Johnson handles a trilogy that’s non episode related than I am for episode 9

 

This is the best post I seen on this board in a long time. Before the sequels came out I took a lot of heat for suggesting that their story was complete and what was the point in having them involved? Also, it was beyond predictable that they were going to kill them off.

The classic characters stories were already told and quite frankly they tower over the new characters (the writers of TFA themselves said they didn’t include Luke because every time he came up in the script nobody cared about the new characters) does anyone really care about Po or Finn when Han Solo is on screen? These new films feel tacked on and small compared to the originals...They should have started from scratch with all new characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2017 ---

Really not a fair comparison in the sense that we have a 40 year history with Luke Skywalker. When Obi Wan Kenobi died in A New Hope, nobody really knew who he was. And even if you accept that premise why repeat it AGAIN? Are all Jedi such snowflakes they all have to run and hide and become hermits? They should have done something a little more original with Luke.

 

I have a HUGE problem with this. It's backwards construction. It's a BS excuse to say it works for this but not that.
Either you accept it or you don't.
Does it devalue the PT Obi-Wan? Not at all.
So it shouldn't devalue Luke.

 

Obi Wan had a purpose. He was watching over Luke to keep him safe until the time was right. Luke just gave up which is so out of character. Again, even if you accept that Obi Wan and Yoda became hermits, why do it AGAIN? Isn’t there any other direction they could go with these characters? Are we going to get Rey as a hermit in 30 years? They just repeated themselves making Luke a hermit. They could have gone off in many more interesting directions

 

For me, the new movie borrows from the rest of the OT, with Rey going to Luke just as Luke went to Yoda, and so on. Given that, I think RJ also played it safe. But I don't blame them because I think the producers ultimately call the shots, and my guess is that they were targeting audiences abroad who are young and likely barely remember or saw OT. Thus, what we are seeing serves as both a sequel to and a partial reboot of OT. I see the same in other franchises, like Alien, Mad Max, and Star Trek.

 

If I'm Iger, I'm doing some serious damage control and saving this franchise before it's too late. First off I'm officially announcing that the ST is no longer going to be the ST anymore. Officially 7 and 8 would lose their episodic saga numbers. TFA and TLJ would now be considered just SW movies that happen to have those new characters. I would no longer bother making what would've been 9, at least not right now. I would go back and make a new trilogy focusing on Luke and Ben set about 10 or so years before TFA (this would be announced as the true ST). I'm sure Harrison could be lured back for a scene or 2 if necessary and if the pay check was good. Leia would have to be CGI.
Then after that was finished I would create an all new trilogy set either in the Old Republic era or far into the future with all new characters unconnected to the OT/PT and start fresh......well there might be some loose connections maybe lol.

 

@DailyPlunger, that's probably what Iger would actually do. He doesn't understand comedy either lol.

 

It was a mistake to have Luke be pushed to the side. He should have been in 7 and have had less of Han Solo. Having Luke in 7 gives more time for Rey to develop in 8 and 9. Because they didn’t do that, Rian Johnson had to explain or fill a plot hole that Abrams left

 

She's not perfectly moral. She gave a lot of power to the darkside when she meditated in that scene with Luke. Barely came back from it. Plus she almost took Kylo's hand to join him after they fought off the Praetorian guards.

 

Keep fighting the good fight.

Threads like these are going to be much less 'quicker', 'easier' than the 'hop on board and praise the film/learn to like it' threads because the writing is so terribly poor in TFA and TLJ that threads like these end up full of ideas from people trying to do the work that the writers should have done.

Here are two of the lesser-seen reviews.

This first one is superb in illustrating how gender politics' takes the place of story past the point where the latter would begin to suffer.

This comes from not following the the Luke storyline to contrast with Vader/Yoda/Obi Wan: he's in seclusion not because of defeat/failure but because he fears his own power.

Virtually impossible to explain over the internet without resorting to pages and pages of writing process, but you do this and you can still have the same Kylo storyline, same Rey storyline, you can appease the 'fanboys' re: the 'treatment of Luke Skywalker' and you can have his great sendoff, should you still want these things to be in the movie.

Posted elsewhere, but it is virtually impossible to expect any writer to be able to write this aspect of a hero correctly. So it's a case of it's bad writing, but you can't blame the writers. Kind of like expecting a little kid to be able to reach something in the top kitchen cabinet.

Bolded part is one of the many glaring facepalms in TFA's writing in particular and you are absolutely right to feel that way.

Finn, for example: all you have to do is keep throwing up situations where his 'being a stormtrooper' is advantageous. For example they're in Maz' and someone's trying to swindle Rey into buying a certain type of gun, and Finn recognizes the model and dissuades her for reasons (make something up), and the seller knows only an imperial would know that, simultaneously becoming deferential to Finn and scared of him. But Rey doesn't know why. And in that moment, Finn is conflicted as to whether to use this power or not. (And then maybe they offer Finn a job, knowing he has at least some sort of imperial connection)

You can see how good organic writing provides its own solutions even in the same scene structure. (What you can't immediately see is how this can setup future reversals/developments).

Or they reach Hosnian Prime in search of Leia and a high-ranking politician tries to lie to Rey about where the Resistance are, and Finn immediately knows this is a lie and has to tell her the Resistance isn't there and Finn is given another chance to tell her the truth about how he knows.

A scene like this pulls triple duty as it further develops Rey/Finn's relationship, (whichever direction you eventually decide to take it) - the audience knows he's not lying to her, but she doesn't - it creates tension/suspense by SHOWING and not telling the audience that not all is hunky-dory within the New Republic, and finally it organically advances them on their journey - Leia's not here, we have to go somewhere else. And can you use this scene to develop Rey and or other ideas within mere seconds of screen time? Absolutely you can.

And this is just a couple of examples in Finn's case. How proper writing leads to Finn having to make choices, advancing or retreating along his journey, and creating moments that can - should the writers choose - be interwoven into ongoing storylines.

 

It wouldn’t overwhelm the new leads if you wrote it properly. Look at Creed, Creed’s story is not overwhelmed by Rocky coming in.

 

In the dictionary it says Luke has given map to LST.

If one wants to be on the island on a remote planet that is hardest to find in the galaxy, and to die there, one does not give a map to his place to an old friend but throws is , just like he throw his X-wing in the sea.

Something misses here.I dont say its plot hole, it could be something we don't knew about jet.

 

You didn't see the scene were Rocky jumps in the ring at age 70 and kicks ass?