Snoke , Master of the Dark side from the shadow.

I think it's official now : Snoke is (not) Khan.

 

I think that is a stretch to call contradictory. It also assumes "just sitting." As for his knowledge there are many possible answers.

I salute your resurrection of criticisms of the DP theory to apply here. No matter who Snoke is where he has been and why now are big questions. UNLESS he really is just an obstacle to Kylo's ascension to power. Then they will be minor questions about Kylo's rise to power.

 

I still see little evidence of Snoke being DP. Most of what is presented is a far stretch of speculation that is mostly fan generation. There is very little canon of DP since his book is now legacy and has yet to be brought back into canon. References from what was learned from the novel are always made but him being a munn is always overlooked because it doesn't fit with Snoke and the theory. Nowhere has said DP looked like a Zombie. References are always made that Snoke looks like he cheated death but in canon, DP couldn't cheat death, only save those he loved from death. We know little of Snoke and his species, what is referenced about him looking like he cheated death could also simply be called injuries. He can take a beating but takes a while to heal. Who knows. References are made to DP "theme" music but last time I watched any SW movie, DP wasn't in any and subsequently didn't have a theme music. Are they similar? yes but once again, DP had no theme. JW reuses pieces from time to time. The piece is called "Palpatine's Teachings". He could have been teaching how to make a Sith cheese sammich and had the same music because it is his teaching music. DP having any theme is Fan made, not canon. Had DP been a villain in the ST would have been fine, but I feel there is little that makes Snoke DP other than certain fan desires. Plus, given that its been stated DP is dead as per canon and Lucas himself didn't have DP in his treatments, Id say those who are being paid to develop the ST are going to come up with their own, new ideas and character (other than the obvious legacy characters) to move it forward rather than circling back to reuse an old villain. They would want their own creations on film. Just my 2 cents.

 

One of the burning questions I hope we get answered about Snoke:

• Why is he badly scarred and damaged?

I remember reading comments from an ILM supervisor in charge of Snoke's design implying the mysterious cause of Snoke's wounds are yet to be revealed.

Scott Pritchard (ILM's Compositing Sequence Supervisor)

"Snoke was much more mysterious [than Maz Kanata] in both the script and his design. He's badly scarred and damaged – but the cause of his wounds remains a mystery.

https://www.scifinow.co.uk/news/star-wars-the-force-awakens-how-snoke-and-maz-were-created/
​

I've always wondered why JJ or Kasdan decided to include his injuries to the extent that they did. Why is it important? It really does defines the identity, characteristics and literal make-up of the character, so surely these guys know the cause behind it all.

Does anyone think the Sequel Trilogy could explain his wounds, without tacking on convoluted exposition or plot points? If so, what?

Adding on a formidable new character seems really unlikely. Of the existing characters, Luke is the only one that could explain it for me. Even then, I doubt Luke was responsible because we're led to believe Snoke has been watching over events from the shadows this whole time. Not directly involved. A previous apprentice of Snoke being the cause (e.g Sidious) would be viable to me, but we're supposed to rule Plagueis out.

Possibly they go another route and explain his injuries as a result of some sort of Dark Side nexus from an unexplored region of the galaxy. But, unless this source of the Dark Side plays into the story at hand, it'll just be needless exposition.

Or... possibly they just don't explain it. Snoke dies the damaged frail old man that he is, and we are none the wiser as to how this guy managed to rise to power, or how he managed to screw up his body so badly despite being on the periphery of all major events.

OR POSSIBLY FURTHER STILL... silly old Snoke got into a fight and injured himself whilst experimenting with the Force. Yep, that's it. Case solved.

 

I'm all ears!

That's just flat out dishonest. There is so much about Snoke that points to Plagueis if indeed that is the story and Plagueis survived...

You've missed the point. The idea that he is Plagueis is based upon the idea that Plagueis was badly injured by Palpatine and survived + that unbeknownst to Palpatine, he did finally discover how he could cheat death himself (not a big leap considering what he was able to do). And thus if Plagueis survived, he would've been zombie like and would've likely had the same kind of injuries and appearance as Snoke. This isn't about what was written about Plagueis but what opportunities that character enables now for the ST and Snoke - and the two seem a perfect fit. DP being a Muun isn't canon so that is irrelevant - except that Snoke is probably as close to being a Muun without being one - 7ft tall, long arms, pale, wealthy...

*See Darth Plagueis Thread.

 

what i don't get is they want to distance Snoke from DP why drop 'the supreme leader is wise' in there. we know DP is Darth Plagueis the wise, I can't take this any other way then a deliberate reference. same for the music, it's almost identical.

 

I get the impression Snoke wants to be greater than all the previous ones, though his name certainly does not sound like something to fear.

 

This is all well and good, but what we have is a new character in the saga which everyone who has the authority to speak on him saying that he's "a completely new character." as well as canon bits of info that show ZERO indication of him being DP and then we have you claiming a few similarities as proof that he is. You have even gone so far as to say that @Fearghas_Ajax is dishonest even though he stated an undeniable truth. There is indeed very little canon on DP and none of it points to Snoke unless you force the connection. That is not how any of this works.

 

1. They're masters of the Dark Side
2. 7ft tall aliens
3. Described as wise & knowledgable
4. Have the same musical tune (when DP is talked about)
5. Command their apprentices to murder their fathers
6. Sought to build star system destroying super weapons
7. (If Plagueis cheated death at Sidious' hand) badly injured
8. Snoke has cheated death - direct tie into Plagueis' story
9. Snoke is very wealthy - as was Plagueis
10. Have a connection to the Skywalker family
11. Is Snoke regenerating? If so this is an old Sith technique discussed in Aftermath.

I could go on....

 

You could go on forcing and manufacturing connections. You are still taking what is NOT canon and ignoring what the folks that CAN say something about the character have said and then discounting all of it to the tune of you calling another member dishonest for stating facts. You are absolutely forcing your opinion into a hole that it does not fit in.

For further clarification, here are some more facts by someone with the authority to speak on it:








Regardless, you and others persist and keep up the fight, so much so that they have even become a joke among the filmmakers themselves:




How much more clear does it need to be?

 

You're missing my point. Pablo confirmed to me on Twitter in the strongest words possible that Snoke was not Plagueis. And as I said a few posts up "I am probaby wrong [in thinking continuing the theory]. The point I have been making within this thread is that the similarities between Snoke and Plagueis are extensive, that Snoke appears to be nothing short of a rip off and the ST would've been better off if Snoke had turned out to be Plagueis.

The only thing the canon films tell us is that:

Plagueis was Sidious' master.
He could save people from death (thus cheat death).
He could likely create life by manipulating midichlorians and likely had a hand in Anakin's creation.
SIdious believed he killed him in his sleep.

There is no confirmation of Plagueis' death because we don't see it. Heck, Kenobi believed he had killed Maul and he chopped him in half. But unlike Maul, Plagueis has even greater reason to have cheated death because he is known to be able to do the same for others!

My point is that Plagueis is far and away the best option for the ST villain - in both having a threat that makes sense, doesn't contradict anything, has a good backstory and ties in directly to the story of Darth Vader (which is what the Skywalker Saga is all about).

 

It doesn't matter if you could line everything up with a ruler and a t-square. Similarities are of no consequence here. Snoke is a new character.

True

False, he could not cheat death, at least in terms of Sidious killing him.

False again. In the NON-CANON book 'Darth Plagueis' he was trying to manipulate midichlorians in an attempt to create a Sith weapon but failed. Nothing, not even the NON-CANON book says that he created Anakin. All talk of Anakin being created by Plagueis are fan-theories.

Again, that is not true:

Still, very incorrect. See the tweets above. The difference between Maul and Plagueis is that we have canon showing that he lived. Still, I remind you that you are basing your information of Plagueis from a NON-CANON book. Legends novels have zero bearing on canon.

Now we are getting somewhere. It's cool that you have that opinion but it is not conductive to discussion for you to tell someone that they are being dishonest when they conveyed to you the only real FACTS that we have on the subject, ESPECIALLY when you are doing so by way of non-canon material some of which you are still twisting to try and make your argument.

 

Cheating death for others is still cheating death. If Snoke has any power like this and there is no connection to Plagueis it will be an odd play by the writers.

You don't have to underline your point. I know the DP novel is not canon. My point is that many things within it (that you have avoided speaking about) relates directly to Snoke:

Building star system destroying super-weapons, being rich and having his apprentice murder his father being 3 of the bigger points.
And in the CANON Tarkin novel, Plagueis' involvement in Anakin's creation is directly referenced.

Sidious' view is that he killed him in his sleep. This is the only info we have. Sidious could've been wrong.

Again, I am not saying Plagueis did live. I am not saying they have gone in this direction. What I am saying is that:

- It could be easily written to make it so that Plagueis lived
- That Plagueis being Snoke would be the more coherent story
- That a great amount of Plagueis' backstory seems to have found its way into Snoke's.

Non-canon or otherwise, you're blind if you cannot see the plethora of similarities between the two.
There is literally nothing about Snoke that, if they so desired to make him Plagueis, would contradict anything in canon.

 

That is speculation and opinion. They cannot refute the facts that we have, one of which is a string of tweets indisputably saying that Palpatine DID indeed kill Plagueis and that he is absolutely dead.

I underline my point because you keep bringing non-canon information in to tell folks that they are wrong. That's now how this works. Show me what it says in the Tarkin novel about Plagueis creating Anakin. I don't remember that being there.

We could play "what if" all day with all parts of Star Wars. What you have listed here is your desire and speculation, not facts.

Except the FACT that Snoke is a new character. Andy Serkis is even on record saying so. And this:

The bottom line is that SIMILARITIES do not in any, way shape or form, trump FACTS.

I am not saying that you should stop hoping that you get your wish. I am saying that you should stop telling people that they are wrong for considering facts instead of your speculation.

 

LFM is allowed to cherry-pick from the old legends universe. Sort like how they brought back Thrawn. Its Thrawn, but a different version of Thrawn to fit this new canon universe. I want them to bring back Mara Jade. I would be fine with any version that fits canon. He could be Plagueis... we'll find out in roughly 90 days...

 

Except Plagueis (canon) is dead (see the tall stacks of tweets above). I agree with the rest of what you said though. I love to see characters that we've loved from the old EU brought in. It's worth noting that nothing like that happened for TFA though. Not saying it won't happen over the next two films, but it won't be Plagueis.

 

Except Hidalgo notes that his tweets are not canon, and he only tells you what we know from published canon sources. If you are going to play the but canon card at least follow your own rules.

I agree with the sentiment that Plagueis in all but name is a cheap way to go.

 

You're being disingenuous, I never said his tweets are canon. I said that he's got the authority to speak on it.

In canon we are told that Plagueis was killed. That is a fact. Pablo has tweeted, as I have displayed, that Plagueis' death indeed happened. As far as the canon stands today (as backed up by Pablo Hidalgo), Plagueis is dead and anything stating contrary is fan theory and speculation. To continue to dispute it is to say that the canon is misleading at best and that Pablo is a liar.

 

I salute this rhetorical flourish. You are a man of profound debate skill. I suggest there are many explanation for who he might have dark side knowledge. You a person of imagination and no small amount of narrative skill reposition the question I posed as obvious to be inscrutable. Fair enough.

Of course you can imagine how he might have great knowledge of the darkside.
1- He is a fallen Jedi. Even a thousand years after the Sith were thought gone from the galaxy the Jedi still caution there padawans about the dark side. In other words Jedi can and have fallen even if they were apparently not Sith.
2- There are many religious factions throughout the galaxy who have a variety of beliefs notable ones; the Seers from season 6 of CW that Mace and Jar Jar visited, Night Sisters, Force witches harassing Ewoks in Caravan of Courage.
3- Perhaps one of at least 2 recently introduced ancient factions had powerful force wielders in their ranks. The Predori mentioned in Aftermath at one point were an empire and have connection to Unknown regions so perhaps the knowledge of the force comes from a more ancient order. The Amaxine Warriors whom the 1st Order linked militia group not unlike the Predori retreated from known space to unknown regions, it is not unreasonable to think that they were renown warriors because of the Force.
4- Even before the great schism of the Jedi which formed the Sith. Exar Kun found an ancient dark side spirit and it taught him the darkside. Perhaps not Cannon any longer but Kun created the Sith it was Bane that introduced the rule of 2.
5- Yoda went to the Sith home world was given visions of Bane as part of his pilgrimage to learn the secrets to transcend death. The crew of the Ghost along with everyone's favorite paraplegic Darth Maul went to Malachor and dug up a Sith Holocron. Perhaps there are other secret places if Force knowledge or other Sith repositories of knowledge that Snoke encountered.

Qui-Gon refered to Obi-Wan as a wiser man than he.
Anakin referred to Yoda as Wise.

Its an adjective. Its scant ground for a bridge between them .

Now the music that is a hint. But is it a hint that they share an identity or is it that they are both Darksiders that are involved in seducing young Skywalkers to evil. In the case of DP the opera played while Sidious spoke of DP. Snoke's theme played during scenes when he counciled Ben to bring him closer to the dark side.

 

I'm sorry, how is my opinion dishonest? .... But DP didn't survive. Can't Snoke be Snoke and DP be DP. Two different individuals.

No I haven't missed anything. I have always understood what you are saying..... that they could work around things and have made him DP. They could have done anything with the ST and they are going in the direction they thought was best for name. I think they going for what is fresh and new, not what is already done. I just don't understand why every Snoke theory thread has turn into a Snoke could be DP thread with the same fan theory ideas ( that could have many other possibilities)

I personally do not think they are trying to distance themselves from anything DP. Any DP connection is strictly from fans, not LFL. To me the word "wise" is just an adjective used defensively by a young person who obviously has parent issues and said parent is trying to tell him the person he looking up too is just using him. To me It's just showing Kylo's daddy issues and being oppositional with his father's words

1. So is Darth Bane and any other darkside master....DP is just one of many, no link here. Snoke could be any of them if we go by this...or he could be new.
2. I assume there are many tall aliens in the galaxy. Doesn't link all them to DP. Plus as I said, there is very little cannon DP. His species and size has not been brought into canon. He could be any height., unless you go by the legacy novel, but then there he is a Munn and Munns are typically tall. Snoke looks nowhere near like a Munn. At least the canon Munn that was in ROTS.
3. Just adjectives, anyone can be described as wise and knowledgeable. It was also said by someone that has daddy issues and had to oppose his father saying Snoke was using him. To me, it sounds like good writing for Kylo to argue "no he is wise" in rebuttal to his father. The link to DP being wise is jjust fan derived.
4. As I said "References are made to DP "theme" music but last time I watched any SW movie, DP wasn't in any and subsequently didn't have a theme music. Are they similar? yes but once again, DP had no theme. JW reuses pieces from time to time. The piece is called "Palpatine's Teachings". He could have been teaching how to make a Sith cheese sammich and had the same music because it is his teaching music. DP having any theme is Fan made, not canon."
5. When did DP do this? I haven't read Tarkin. Was it in there? I know it wasn't in ROTS.
6. Have to ask again, was this in Tarkin?
7. He could be, but we have no clue as to what method Sidious used to kill his master. He could have whacked over the head with a lamp or stuck a lightsaber through his temple.
8. Snoke is/was injured. Doesn't mean he cheated death. If you consider that he did cheat death, then that means anyone who has been injured and didn't die cheated death. Which could be trillions upon trillions of individuals in the galaxy. Doesn't make them all DP.... Heck, Finn and Luke could be DP then.
9. Im sure Snoke isn't the only wealth person in the galaxy. They all are not DP because they are wealthy. Plus was DP wealthy? Was that in Tarkin, it wasn't in ROTS.
10. He has? I must read Tarkin, seems to be a lot of stuff about DP there.
11. He just may be regenerating and if so would mean he has studied some sith techniques. There have been many sith. How does this link to DP?

I don't know. What I got from ROTS was Sidious killed his master as was the sith way. Sidious would have been a lesser sith if he wasn't sure. Don't think LFL is going to take away from what GL laid out. Plus PH said he was dead, killed.

I think the DP novel has at times skewed being objective about Snoke.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2017 ---

Sounds to me it is more of a dark side teaching motif/theme, not DP theme.