"TFA is just just a copy of ANH!"

I swear.. all the people who call this ANH remake would have made something even more derivative. I mean, there's almost always going to be a sith/dark side villain with a red lightsaber, superweapons of some capacity and the main characters will almost always be loners who assimulate into the rebel cause and learn the ways of the force. ALL of the haters' scripts would have included these elements. People who don't live and breathe art, accuse everything of being unoriginal.. The Hero's Journey is pretty much applicable to all movies, we've been using these storytelling devices since the dawn of time.

 

Absolutely this.

I'm so close to 30 posts to put some likes out there

 

Even that point only makes sense initially, but doesn't hold water either

@Grand Admiral Kraum nice avatar by the way.

 

One year after tthe release I think TFA is not necessarily a copy of ANH. But the climax certainly is. The end battle always ruins the atmosphere to me. Especially the trech run copy, that scene is just straight up redundant. When we're back at the search for Luke arc again, its like finally going back to the movie.
I would've overlooked the similarities at the beginning if the ending battle would've been different. Say anything you want, but Starkiller Base was a bad idea imo. There are just so many other ways they could've done it. If they insisted on the superweapon, than at least design an original one... A sith pyramid or whatever.

 

+1.

 

The reason why Creed is well regarded even though it very much mirrors Rocky was that it was a focused story. It wasn't gimmicky and the characters were consistent. In Creed, Creed is trying to get out of the shadow of his father while in Rocky, Rocky is trying to prove that he is more than just a piece of meat. There are similarities but it wasn't a beat for beat. Creed has a training montage like Rocky but its all in tune with character. The film has a life of its own and rarely hits you over with the head with references to previous movies.

Force Awakens. Nothing wrong with having parallels of a New Hope but there is hardly any drama or character consistency. The story is unfocused and in the end, it goes back to retreading other random story beats from the OT. If there wasn't a mystery box, and we knew more about the characters perhaps people wouldn’t be as critical but that was not the case.

Rey is good at everything just well because....why? She doesn’t really have a consistent arc like Luke did in a new hope. Its certainly nice to see her fight Ren in the snow but everything building to that is rather messy. We don’t see her train with Luke or any indication that she can wield a lightsaber, the movie just expects us to take it for granted.

We don’t know much about Finn except that he wants to defect. None of the characters traits really correlate with what is happening with the plot. So rather than seeing a character change through drama, we are seeing them experience silly references to other movies or carbon copies of re-used story beats that come off as gimmicky.

The movie wants us to see Rey and Han have this great relationship but doesn’t really want to do the work to earn it. After hanging out with him for like ten minutes, why does she decide that he is the father she never had? We don’t see a whole lot of bonding. The movie just wants us to think there is without backing it with anything earned. She gets picked up by his freighter and then immediately, they are in pointless rathtar chase and they scape in the Falcon. Ok. but then they go to the castle and suddenly he wants to take her on as a crew member. Nothing prior to this indicated that he would ask her.

Return of the Jedi revisits a desert planet and a death star. Yes, however, Jedi had a focused story. They return to tatooine because that was set up in Empire and they want to rescue Han from Jabba. While the second death star is not the most inspiring choice, at least it was ingrained with character, the Emperor was using the second death star as a trap to lure the rebels in so he can zap them one by one while having Luke watch his friends die so as to get him in a fight with his dad and thereby turning him to the dark side, creating a new apprentice. Jedi is ultimately a story of redemption and finding humanity in monsters(this helps with the scene at Jabbas palace with the Rancor and with Vader’s turmoil).


Rogue One makes lots of on the nose references to other films, but the reason why Rogue One is better(at least to me) is that it has a focused story. The characters have a specific goal and theres never a sense of randomness.

 

Rey is shown fighting with a melee weapon. Doesn't need survival training. The film certainly does not 'ask' you to take it for granted. The information is all there.

Han explicitly states why he wants a crewmate, which actually echoes something he said to Luke 35 years prior: "You're good in a fight, we could use ya." So it is not out of character for Han, especially at that age. Rey proves herself by fixing and knowing the Falcon, she's good in a ship, he could use her.

If one sees a mentor thing there, then that's nice. If one doesn't see it, then I guess it's not a story beat from ANH.

The actor's performances bring the audience in. Not the story beats or what is framed by the audience's version of events. Ridley, Ford, Boyega all do a fun job of bringing the audience in, which is why people love the film so much.

 

Han only asks Luke to join him towards the end of the film after they’ve bonded enough. Rey and Han haven’t been through enough for him to say that.

What my problem was is that the film took too many shortcuts in terms of story and character arc. Yes, the actors are great but the emotional beats are very unearned.

Example, when Poe and Finn reunite, they act like they've been best buddies but they’ve only met once. That’s an emotional beat that would normally take an entire film to develop but Abrams uses shortcuts, which ultimately makes the film seem unfocused. Han and Luke become friends but they never act like they’re the best of buds in the first film, so the relationship feels earned and honest. They only hug each other after destroying the Death Star and that’s at the end.

Luke is drawn to Leia in the first film but never does he have an emotional beat where he acts like she’s this great thing to him. He wants to rescue her not because he feels its the right thing to do and its part of filling his aspirations to joining the Rebel cause. We see his hopes and dreams, and so it makes sense when he urges Han to go and rescue the princess.

Finn, however, suddenly develops strong feelings for her just because. We don’t get enough of a developed relationship because the film is in a hurry to jump from one fast paced action scene to the next. Finn wants her to come with him after hanging out with her for twenty minutes, not even. When Rey is taken away, he went from suddenly wanting to leave without question to having these really strong emotional feelings for Rey.

Spielberg makes emotional films but they are focused films. Sometimes you do take shortcuts but the level that Abrams does it is to the highest extremes.

The world building of this film felt off. How did the First Order rise exactly? We don’t know, we just have to read the books to get all the details.
In a New Hope, there was exposition, weaved with character moments. The rebels are being chased by the Empire, its very clear. They are rebelling against an evil empire. The Force Awakens didn’t explain enough why the Resistance is independent from the republic. Its’ very vague and all over the place.

I don’t always agree with this critic but he kind of nails my issues with the film here http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/06/28/star-wars-the-force-alluded-to

 

Yes, did you know how the empire rose in ANH, and how the Rebellion fitted in? Did ANH give enough exposition? You think the emotional beats are 'earned' and fleshed out? That movie 'critic' by the way, have observed the obvious point in his analysis which nullifies his entire review?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 15, 2017 ---

The question you should ask yourself is whether Starkiller base and the fighter raid were necessary plotpoints, or whether the third act of TFA was structured around a different plotpoint. If you interpret the third act as 'an escape from the evil castle' it all starts to make sense.

 

We don’t know how the empire rose but we do know that the galaxy is ruled by the Empire and that there is a small rebellion. See the difference? With Force awakens, luke skywalker has vanished and the resistance is fighting against the remnants of the empire called First order. Ok, fine. But there is no world building explanation during the film. What is the difference between the First Order and the Empire? Also we know that the galaxy was once a republic of peace with jedi before the empire took over, with the help of a jedi named darth vader. You see how we have enough information to work off of?

What is the goal of the First Order or what is Snoke up to? In a new hope, we see Tarkin, working for the Empire, is trying to retrain control of the rebellion and the planets with his death star, and also with the regional governors that they have in various systems. There is a thing called the Force, explained by Obi-Wan in a scene where Luke and the audience gets to know about his family and the history of the universe around him. We learn the force is a mystical energy field that people use to practice.

Force Awakens doesn’t really dive into that. Yes it is the 7th film in a franchise but as a start to a new trilogy, there has to be some level of exposition.

Instead of having scenes where Finn gets to talk more about his life and background, we are jumped to another action scene and the another one. I have said this one time too many but the story is clouded with mystery boxes, which I can see why when you want to set up for a trilogy but as a viewing experience, it becomes dramatically unsatisfying on multiple viewings and ultimately gives more work for episodes 8 and 9 to do.

None of what Rey wants or desires really integrates with the plot or whats happening. She wants to be with her family but then thats it. We don’t know anything else, just that she’s good at everything and that she goes to see Luke to become a Jedi I guess just because some old lady alien in a bar told her to and the lightsaber called to her because she’s gifted(I guess).

The problem is we wouldn’t know a single thing about that lightsaber unless we saw the other films and why is that lightsaber so important all of the sudden?
We dunno, we instead get “good question for another time.”

I think most people wouldn’t mind the similarities with a New Hope if the film had focused characterization and storytelling.

 

Considering a lot of the flak TFA gets seems to come from PT fans who take anything NEW in Star Wars that is better received than the PT as a personal slight...it makes perfect sense.

 

I still think the Starkiller plotpoint was unnecessary. The first half is structured around the search for the map. That part is pretty good and an interessting idea. I think the whole movie should've been about the heist for Luke, climaxing in a battle near his hiding location (either space or ground or both), resulting in the victory of the Resistance although with huge losses (Han could've had a more heroic death there if they insisted on him dying).

 

Take out the Starkiller and you'd take out my biggest problem with the movie. (I like the movie, before anyone pounces on that... ). There are other things about TFA that aren't my favorite, but if the Starkiller were gone, I'd be able to overlook them much more easily.

 

In this specific community, it seems to be PT fans.

Overall, I'm sure it's a healthy mix of both

 

First Order has an entire scene with a general spouting fascist rhetoric. It's clear what they are. Power is power. That's like asking Palpatine to put forth an explicit social and economic agenda for the galaxy.

Rey is unsure of what she wants. That's pretty clear. It's what makes her want to turn away at times, but fate takes her in one direction that she finally embraces and....awakens. (Luke was a confused character at first too, he wanted to join the Imperial Academy to get off of Tatooine despite 'hating the Empire', luckily fate delivered him to Obi-Wan and Leia). Rey isn't always sure of herself until fate intervenes, and surely doesn't want to become a Jedi just because an old lady said something. It's not until her own powers are made aware to her and she tests them in direct confrontation, finally convincing herself that her future isn't back on Jakku. She's very reluctant and vulnerable and a loner, until a droid, a lightsaber, and a stormtrooper bullrush themselves into her life. These things aren't taken for granted, the information is there, and there is a story there if one only wants to look at Ridley's performance - its why she's as embraced as she is.

Finn defects from a violent fascist order. It's something that actually have happened before, considering they have an entire contingency program that ensures stormtroopers get 're-conditioned' as Phasma states, as well as prior instances of insubordination requiring such re-conditioning. Therefore the troopers aren't necessarily robots and have some individual free will (as did Clones, interestingly enough - to counter Kylo Ren's point to Hux regarding the use of clones, which would logically be less inclined to commit treason, thereby furthering the point that insubordination and treason were a known risk for FO leadership in utilizing programming from birth). Finn might not be the only trooper that's exhibited such traits, he just was able to rescue a certain pilot from a capital ship that got him away before he was caught or killed.

Considering that pilot was just tortured by a Force-wielder and Finn was staked out by Phasma "for inspection", yeah, they would be pretty happy to see each other safe and sound.

All the information is there. Information doesn't have to be put in words. Its in performances, for which TFA is often lauded for over many of the other SW films.

And I doubt most fans put it ahead of ANH for the reasons you state, I'd bet a poll of most fans would put TFA as 3-5 on the list of now 8 live action films, and we haven't even seen 8 or 9 yet. And even ESB, which many fans rank as number 1, left multiple unresolved issues (another 'hope', who the hell the Emperor is after the first time we see him, Han Solo, Obi-Wan's lie) because it was conscious of it being a film in a franchise, and that's what we will get from now on, with most films. Its a fact we'll have to accept in this new generation.

 

I can somewhat agree that some parts of the characters, their arcs, and their relationships, seem a bit rushed. The greatest shame for me is that Poe Dameron just doesn't get more time on screen. The early moments of the film made me look forward to the classic Star Wars banter we would get between those two.

However, I still found the relationships between the characters and their own journeys to be the best bits of the movie. Finn casts aside his fear to help the only friend he has in the Galaxy since escaping the First Order. Rey forgets going back home to Jakku to wait for her family and embraces her ability in the Force. Kylo Ren is fighting with the light side of the Force and attempts to overcome it by killing his father. These are the things we're truly paying attention to and they all culminate in important points in the story. Finn goes after Rey, Rey summons the saber, Ren kills his father. That's not saying every bit of their growth is perfectly displayed, but they feel real and I'm pretty invested in it.

 

I'm really not that bothered by Starkiller. The short trench run was a nice little nod, but the rest of it is only secondary. The "starkiller fires" I love because it finally dramatizes the firing of a super weapon. You see the fear in the eyes of both operators and victims. It was also functional in that it immediately highlighted that the First Order is a never before seen force to reckoned with.

 

I agree that it's a well made scene. Yet due to the lack of social-political context it left little to no impression imo. I mean, we still don't know exactly what is the political status of the era. How strong is the FO, the New Republic, why is there a need for a Resistance etc...
I haven't read Bloodline, and I don't think im going to in the near future so hopefully ep VIII will provide us some insight about this.