SPECULATION The Connection Between Rey and Ben.

Respectfully. Now. We will have to disagree. There are multiple sources that show that Ben/Kylo was not just deeply conflicted, but indeed horrified by the act of killing his father. Director's commentary, script and AD performance all confirm it. Do we really need to repost those again? It was already indicated/shown that he already regrets it (nevermind for the moment what he tells Rey about Han Solo not being there to save her - he was pretty delirious, wasn't he, did it not occur to you that he maybe is talking about himself as well?!). But in any case one may assume that they will revisit what he really feels about killing his father in VIII and let's then judge him with finality. It is far too early to say where are they going with his (I must add very loudly telegraphed) inner conflict.
Kylo/Ben is "accused of" and mocked for feeling compassion for Rey by Snoke right after the failed interrogation.
Most recently "corroborated" by the updated data bank:

Yes, yes. But if deliberate - to what end??? Cinematic and written fiction narrative require that if a gun is described in Chapter one it will be fired in a later chapter (i.e. so called "Chekhov's gun"). I don't think with the limited time any storyteller has, if he is any good, one will just pose questions that lead to no answers. Hence all our wondering as to why would they would deliberately put sexual undertones there (if they indeed do it). Why is Adam Driver made up and coiffed to look like "sort of a prince". Why??

Now that is the core theme of the whole saga isn't it?

 

Force bond? he can see an island. i'm pretty sure she'll be able to see remorse.
all it takes is one walk around the ganglia for the two of them to know more about each other in an instant than most people will ever know in a lifetime.

i mean that's the thing, isn't it? the story is still unfolding. literally anything can happen.

doesn't seem like there's any point in pre-deciding what can or should.

 

I wouldn't put it past TPTB to paint pictures that allow multiple readings that can "work" without eventuating on-screen or even co-exist with/outside the narrative. The mystery box technique might have some effectiveness, maybe presenting a rorschach-like canvas for us to project/read our own detail onto can be successful too.

Perhaps there is some magic threshold or balance where "less is more" and film-makers can get the viewer to invest further in the story by presenting contradictory or limited information.

Maybe leaving many options open contributes to a broader appeal, fosters interesting discussion, and creates buzz? Your question would be interesting to hear the film-makers answer one day.

(BTW I probably shouldn't have discounted all the unintended consequences (eg Chewie blocking) and other errors that will inevitably creep into the finished product in my earlier claim about everything being deliberate!)

Juxtaposition for counterpoint perhaps, or maybe reversing the over-flogged trope of the ugly, deformed, deep voiced antagonist? TPTB did do a lot of contrast and trope subverting in TFA.

 

Of course she didn't see or feel his remorse at that moment. (I'm actually doubtful if her and Finn even heard what was said.)
But I'm very glad to hear you are not denying that there was genuine remorse.
What I meant was. Chances are that his remorse will not be just a fleeting emotion that will not last. On the contrary. It will have impact and influence going forth. Rey may yet bear witness to that continued remorse and regret. Two more films to be able to develop the characters, further explain their motivations and we do desperately need the backstory of why we found Han and Leia's son where we found him in TFA and I think I can safely wager that Rey and we the audience will be given that backstory.
As Adam Driver recently hinted in an interview when asked about EP.VIII. We will see his character's "humanity" and that things set up in TFA will be further developed in TLJ.

 

I know you are (mostly) being devil's advocate, and that you are (mostly) deliberately overthinking this, but let's see...

Too much has been made of the so-called "mystery box". This is not a TV series. They have minimal time - about 6 hours, to tell the story they want to tell. Unanswered questions (at least the important ones) are not plot holes. They are questions that will be answered later. It's a trilogy. Things set up in the 1st part of the trilogy will develop and come into focus when revisited and will essentially become obvious in retrospect when the trilogy is finished. TPTB are fully aware that what they are making is a trilogy, but also a trilogy that they hope will be revisited and fit well with what precedes it and will hopefully stand the test of time.

The script has been re-written and the film re-edited until they had the minimal number of pieces they needed with which to play with. Any superfluous pieces must and should be cut. It is one thing to have Easter eggs strewn for the fanboys to find upon repeated viewings, quite another thing to have things set up in a very specific way for your main characters and their relationships.
Things such as what is the vibe your characters interactions have is crucial. Remember, JJ thought that Rey and Finn's interaction did not have the right feeling and re-wrote and reshot their scenes.

JJ gives me the impression that he knows exactly (and is with a full awareness of) what he is setting up and is giving the necessary direction to receive what he thinks should be there.



JJ's job was to put the main chess pieces on the board and set up the game. (And I believe that he did that to great effect.) Rian's job is to move those pieces towards where TPTB think they must go. Colin's job will be to have the game end in the way they think the game should end.

As I said, if you have a gun in Chapter one that gun must fire. (Unless you are a post-modern or absurdist fiction in which case you may randomly set up stuff without any meaningful consequence at all. Which SW storytelling is not.)

They did do contrasting. They introduced the character in a very specific way and then they completely subverted the expectation by revealing him to look in a very be unexpected way. They wanted to make the point - look, this guy, he was two sides struggling in him. He is conflicted and torn. They used every possible way - lightsaber, dialogue, etc. to telegraph that message. Including the contrast between masked and unmasked and his dual identities as Kylo Ren and Ben Solo.

Keep in mind. Rey in a way (and especially in that scene) is a substitute for the audience. She (and us) saw the real face of the character for the 1st time in that scene. He was called a creature in a mask and chose to reveal that he is perhaps more than meets the eye. The point was certainly made. Remember that they considered revealing his unmasked face for an earlier scene (with Snoke when he was revealing that Han has the Falcon and the droid) and instead made costly CGI alteration in order to keep the reveal for the interrogation scene. It was quite deliberate to show us Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in exactly the way they did. And JJ comment at that moment of unmasking was looking like "sort of a prince".

And this is notable especially since earlier in the commentary he mentions how Rey is like Cinderella, that they are setting up a fairy tale and that every fairytale needs a prince a princess and a castle. These remarks are thought out, they are not slips of the tongue. So there is that.

So if the director/writer of the 1st chapter is telling me that Kylo is "sort of a prince" and that the main heroine is "like Cinderella" (a rather apt comparison since Rey is a poor scavenger) and that this is a space fairy tale, I would think that he is most probably going somewhere with that...wouldn't you agree?

Keep in mind. This very commentary and it's very specific wording and certainly the movie itself are going to be revisited and rewatched again (and again) after all the trilogy is ended and all 3 chapters of the story are already told.

So, I'm going to say it again. Adam Driver was made up and coiffed to look like a prince in a fairy tale. Will he be like the Beast in Beauty and the Beast, an enchanted prince who is like a monster, but turns out to be "not as bad as he seems" and transform into a prince or will he turn out to be just as bad as he seems and remain a monster. I've read quite a few fairy tales in my life and chances are this space fairy tale will follow the well established mode of narrative tales for children. More often than not, a prince introduced as a monster, most likely will not end up as one.
My gut feeling tells me, that if you had 3 chapters to tell a story, you will not set up someone in your 1st chapter in a certain way, just so that he ends the same (or worse).

That's all I got at present.

Spoiler: while we wait for VIII

P.S. So that we are clear. In this, you are the bald guy. I am Toshiro. Ha!

 

The ReyLo counter argument seems to be based on the notion that it means Rey will have to fall head over heels and act like a silly love sick puppy.

No one is suggesting this! The first point is that Ren has feelings for Rey. The second point is that Rey will likely develop compassionate feelings for Ren (regardless of who they are to each other) and that this will turn into love of some description for BEN SOLO.

Whether she acts on that love in a romantic way is irrelevant. The point is hay feelings of compassion, connection and yes desire and attraction could exist and that these are things that she has to struggle with.

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Or would it be better if they're cousins and Ren is redeemed for strange reason because of that weak familial relationship, despite killing his father and betraying his mother?!

 

Kylo "You're my guest"

 

A totally unrelated question...
How is men presuming how women (or female charachters) should feel, behave and/or act respectful?

And be honest guys...if Ben was a girl...and Rey was a guy, would the possible love story offend you as much?
Just a thought.

 

exactly

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again 100% correct.

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I would hate/dislike it the same way.

 

Yeah...but would you presume how all other women should feel as well? Or what they should think? And then offend them and call them names if they thought differently? On what/which moral authority?
Feministic principles of equal rights reffer towards other women as well not just towards men.

Live and let live people. and if 50 shades of gray disgust you or you find them silly like i do then....don't watch it!
Peace beothers

 

I just dislike any dark/light gothic romance type of stuff. That's independent from genders.

 

Wow.

You've just attempted to argue that patricide - particularly patricide when the father is trying to convince his son to stop being a murderous arseh*le - is somehow a moral grey area.

His arc throughout TFA was one of a sociopath pursuing a desperate desire to purge himself of all remaining pangs of guilt over his actions. His final step in that process occurred on Starkiller Base. He looked his own father in the eyes while his father tried to appeal to any remaining good within him to abandon his murderous path and come home, while his father offered to do anything he needed to do to help him to abandon that dark path - and he coldly, calculatedly ran his father through with a lightsaber.

Rey watched this entire thing go down right before her eyes.

Yes, Star Wars is a space fable. And as such, it does convey certain values. That was one of Lucas' thoughts behind the creation of the series in the first place - in the 1970s, he felt that kids needed a new "modern fairy tale" for a generation that he felt was growing up without fairy tales. So he made his modern fairy tale for "kids of all ages" in a way that wasn't overly preachy (because what 25 year-old "kid of all ages" wants to be preached at?) but that also laid down some pretty clear moral values.

Yoda's descriptions of the dark side ("Anger, fear, aggression - the dark side of the Force are they.") and the light ("A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.") form a very definite moral underpinning. You may not personally feel that it's the place of a fairy tale film to do that, but that's what Star Wars did from the beginning.

I felt like Lucas began to lose that focus during the PT by having Padme be privy to the fact that Anakin slaughtered an entire village of men, women and children, after which Padme still professed her love for him and married him. But at least when all was said and done, it didn't end well for either of them (I guess in keeping with the old German "Grimm's Fairy Tales" thing of "be good and do what you're told or you'll DIE!!")

I cannot, however, get behind the idea that Star Wars would suddenly ditch its moral compass altogether in favor of becoming a "fairy tale" that conveys the idea that you can murder your own father as he reaches out to you in love and compassion, and then later turn around and redeem yourself AND get the girl. IMHO, by any reasonable measure, Ben Solo has to die by the end of all of this. Perhaps his final act can be redemptive, but he's crossed that line where you just don't get back to "happily ever after."

On top of which, the last thing this story needs is a female lead who gets sucked into the tired old "He's violent and abusive, but I can CHANGE him!!" trap. That would just turn a strong female lead into a tired old Jerry Springer Show cliche. I really can't see LFL doing that.

 

I didn't read that from @FN-3263827's post. Clearly, she was just saying that Ren isn't a cold-blooded killer. The motive was human. Selfish. Wrong. But human.

He did that to end his own pain. It's selfish, sure, but we have to understand Ren's journey - which Rey, one day, will understand as well.
He was arguably tainted and manipulated from the beginning. His family hid things from him and sent him away. Snoke was likely feeding him a false destiny that Ben believed he couldn't escape from - made stronger when Vader was revealed as his grandfather. And so he thinks it is his destiny to finish what Vader started and becomes wedded to that. Thus the light causes him immense pain - again showing that he "loveth too much". He believes killing Han will end that love. It doesn't.

It's a terrible mistake. It's another tragedy. Anakin murdered because he wanted to save Padme. A lot of blame was on Anakin's shoulders of course. He became greedy and selfish. But they were human desires. It's the same with Ben. He had human desires which meant that the evil overlord could push him towards committing terrible crimes. Yes, he made those choices and the responsibility is his. But the road to them is all too human.

I don't think anyone is arguing for this. This won't be a happy ever after love story, if it is a love story. We're simply saying that, like Anakin, Ben can be redeemed and he can be loved again. If Star Wars teaches us anything, it is that love conquers hate.

Yet it was ok for Luke to think the same about his father?
Kylo Ren isn't abusive to women. Nothing suggests that. All we see is that he a Dark Sider and he acts as an enemy to the Jedi and Resistance.
Putting this to one side though, we're dealing with a fantasy story where people literally take on 2 identities. A good and a bad one.
Rey doesn't have to change Kylo Ren. She just needs to help find Ben Solo again.

 

no, i'm actually not. i'm saying the psychological/emotional circumstances of the murder determine Ren's capacity for understanding the implications of what he's doing. someone who kills in a state of confusion is absolutely not the same as someone who kills out of sheer viciousness or greed.

the crime is still terrible. but there is a greater possibility for redeeming the criminal in that first scenario.

sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
​

unless we cam agree that this is the definition of a sociopath, there's no point in arguing.
i don't see someone who lacks conscience in Kylo Ren. nor is he anti-social (especially not to an extreme). he has incredibly corrupted political values and is very confused about his place in the galaxy: both of which Snoke has taken advantage. he killed his father because he thinks he has a bigger role to play in the galaxy and that he can't do it do long as he's "weak". he made a sacrifice (a very foolish one). but again, if you want to insist he's merely a sociopath and there's no actual nuance here, there's not much i can argue.

yes, and that no one is beyond redemption if they turn away from the Dark side. and that even someone like Vader was capable of returning to the Light.
don't forget, Yoda (and Obi-Wan) were ultimately wrong about Vader. maybe you're wrong about Ben?

that's one narrow possible view of this story's potential.
Rey doesn't need to change him. she doesn't need to change, though she might teach him a thing or two.
he needs to reject the Dark of his own realization/epiphany/reckoning.

whatever happens after that is anybody's game.

i know people have this "crossed the line" idea about Kylo Ren, but you're drawing those lines arbitrarily based on your own personal value system.
i am no one to judge anyone else, no matter what they have done. i believe its possible to be truly contrite, to atone for past sins no matter how grave.
and ultimately the Force does not discriminate (it accepted Anakin Skywalker), so why shouldn't we?

i don't care if Rey and Ben don't traipse off into the sunset holding hands. but this idea that Ben's only option is to die in his redemption is silly and boring. talk about a morally facile ending. let him live and let's take that harder journey. that's something we haven't seen in Star Wars.

 

(Speaking purely from a storytelling perspective about a series aimed at children and that has always been essentially a fairytale)

Yes! as a character, Vader crossed the line. Had he survived, the audience would not have accepted his redemption. The only way that Anakin could be redeemed would be through his own death. Then, for some reason, we could all just sit back and go "yeah, he was a good guy after all" - even though he'd tortured his own daughter and her boyfriend, tried on multiple occasions to kill his own son, killed Obi Wan, been complicit in the destruction of Alderaan, and force choked too many people to name (mostly his own men - yeah he's that evil).

Sure, redemption is always possible, but can an audience really swallow it if the previous evil actions go unpunished? It's a morality tale. It's a kids film.

By killing Han, Kylo has already crossed a line - he's too evil for redemption by any means other than sacrificing himself to save the galaxy. But...surely they have something more original than that up their sleeve by now?

 

Just because Luke accepted his father doesn't mean that the galaxy would have, as we've seen in Bloodline he is used to stain Leia. It's the same for Kylo Ren. He and the galaxy can never go back to just pretending nothing happened while he was Snoke's right-hand man. The greatest thing Vader ever did is kill himself to protect a family member.

 

Is "redemption" the absolving of ones crimes though or is it more about "reclaiming oneself"? I'm asking the question here rather than making a point.
Thinking about it, Vader's redemption isn't about absolving him of his crimes, in my opinion, but rather about Anakin returning and "repossessing" his own self.
And thus, when thinking about Ren's redemption, it's not about him being forgiven by everyone or being vindicated but rather Ben returning and being able to do good again - be it briefly in sacrifice or beyond.

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But maybe this is what needs to be addressed? I'm personally not for another trilogy with Kylo and co but anyway...
With the PT in particular, Vader's redemption and "happy ending" was harder to swallow for sure.
So perhaps watching how a former master of evil adapts to their return to the light would be a good inclusion to the mythology?

If we consider modern day issues, one such problem that relates to this trilogy is religious extremism/terrorism/jihadism.
Perhaps Ren can be a metaphor for how a person falls into Jihadism, how they act during it, their redemption and how they adjust to life there after?
It's fascinating reading accounts of these people and a lot can be learned from them - I recommend reading about Maajid Narwaz's life as an extremist and how he has become a reforming figure.

 

I was speaking from the audience perspective - his redemption "in our eyes".

It wouldn't have mattered if his sacrifice remained completely unknown within the star wars universe. It's about what we see on the screen.

 

Indeed. And to us Anakin returned to the light and did the right thing in the end.
We the audience know he wasn't absolved of his crimes, but we accepted that he was redeemed.
And I guess if Vader can be redeemed, then just about anyone can.
But what his redemption highlights is what we're talking about now - where does one go after that?
Is there any value in just hoping Ben dies? Is there any value in him returning to the light to just die?
Or would it be better for the galaxy for him to survive and help demonstrate to others on a dark path the error of their ways?

The point about whether Rey can love him in separate and comes in two parts for me.
Can she have compassion for him and love him as a person? I certainly hope so. That's what Star Wars is about for me.
Can she become romantically involved with him? That is a lot more complicated. But to be honest I don't think it's a necessary story to tell after whatever happens happens at the end of this trilogy. What is important is Ben's return and why he comes back (and why & how Rey's helps him come back).