SPECULATION The Connection Between Rey and Ben.

I keep bringing this up and the target group always ignores it. "This is a character that has made a lot of bad choices but not necessarily in the world of Star Wars, because that can go in any direction." Where's the finality about Ben Solo's fate some of you seem to be so sure of? Do we assume every misled, confused young person Kylo Ren is a metaphor for according to KK is a sociopath who needs to be put down like a rabid dog?

 

this is all that matters--and it's their connection, romance or no.
the rest of it is just window dressing.

 

I've already used this comparison, but heck I'll do it again:
Professor Snape in The Harry Potter series.
He was once a Death Eater and likely committed terrible evils.
However, he fell in love with Harry's mother, Lily and then turned his back on his old ways.
After Lily's death, Snape pledged to protect Harry and did so until his dying breath.

So although Snape was effectively redeemed well before his demise, he is a great example of a villain who committed terrible things but was redeemed by love. What's more, Snape always had a darkness about him but Lily was his friend. She understood his loneliness.
An interesting scene is when Snape is looking into Harry's mind but then Harry reverses the spell onto him and sees how his own father bullied Snape. Harry feels sorry for Snape in this moment. It will be interesting to see if Rey is both the love interest of Ren but also has seen his loneliness and pain and eventually feels compassion for him. If she can empathise with him then she might discover Ben and could quite easily love him in a more intimate way.

 

Leia has already failed.
The point of the new trilogy is essentially the hero journey of Rey. And as much as Ben does need to pull himself out of it on his own, he needs help.
And that role falls at the feet of the hero - Rey. And if she is to be a worthy hero, then she must help him - regardless of his past.
But that is the challenge. That is what makes things interesting and adds conflict.
Rey has to see past what she thought of Ren. She has to face the Dark Side. She has to deal with her own feelings and the definite connection between them.
If it were all cut and dry and Leia just redeems her son because she is his mother, well, what's the point?

 

That's just the thing, though. It WAS a cold-blooded murder.

There was no heat of the moment there. Han was reaching out to his son out of love and compassion, and offering to do anything he could in order to help him. And his son very deliberately murdered him where he stood.

I see you applying descriptors such as "selfish", "human" and "mistake" to this blatant, premeditated act of patricide. I don't get the impression that J.J. and company chose patricide as Ben's most serious onscreen crime with the intent that it be downgraded to a selfish, human mistake. If the intent had been to leave Ben in a moral grey area, they'd have had him do something else. But the archetypal weight that patricide carries goes far beyond what can reasonably be consigned to some morally flexible no-man's land, and I think J.J. and company very deliberately chose patricide for that reason.

Yes, possibly Ben could sacrifice himself to destroy Snoke in the end, the way Anakin sacrificed himself to destroy Palpatine. It could be argued that the fact that doing so prevents untold numbers of future deaths balances their final ledger. But that balance isn't achieved until both they and their master have died. Neither of them gets to be a "grey" character in the meantime. Not with the crimes against humanity that they have committed.

With the importance the concept of family holds to Rey, though, I just don't see a believable character arc for her that includes her falling in love with Ben, or even accepting any sort of justification for what she saw him do to his own father. That's NOT just between Ben and Han. That Ben was willing to murder his own father in cold blood like that tells Rey everything she needs to know about him. It's like seeing somebody torture a pet or deliberately harm a baby. There are some lines you simply do not cross and then expect to be given any sort of benefit of the doubt afterward. And those who do try to grant that benefit of the doubt in that situation almost always end up living to regret it.

On top of that, there's also the value that Rey clearly places on family. She waited for years on that dustball for her own family to return. Ben HAD a family, and tossed that relationship away in the pursuit of power, to the point where he ultimately murdered his own father. From that point of view alone, I don't see how Rey could believably see past what Ben did to his father.

And no, this isn't really comparable to Luke being determined to see and re-awaken the good in his father. Rey simply doesn't have that kind of tie to Ben - not even close. It's one thing for a son to need to see his father as something other than a monster. It's something else entirely for a person to see a perfect stranger murder their own parent and then to somehow develop an emotional tie to them in spite of what they witnessed that perfect stranger doing.

I just don't want to see LFL trip themselves up like that.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 27, 2017 ---

If Kennedy and company consider cold-blooded patricide to be nothing more than "a bad choice that can go in any direction", and they proceed with Ben and Rey's character arcs under that assumption, then IMHO the ST is going to fall on its ass.

I hope they are far smarter storytellers than that.

 

Is there another version of that scene where Ben doesn't break down in tears in front of his father confessing about the torment he desperately tries to end?

 

the event is much more complex than a simple act of premeditated evil.
that's fine if you choose to view it in such simplistic terms, but just because you call it cold-blooded murder doesn't make that accurate or true.

yes, i have all confidence that they are ~ hahaha

 

I for one believe that Leia's role in bringing her son back is also crucial. Or at least her understanding and belief in it to be possible. She may not personally be able to do much and directly interact, but her continued belief that her son still has Light in him, (it's a fact that it is already established in canon that her and her son share a special bond and thus she will be able to continue to know what he is feeling) is crucially important. On one hand, it's because Leia's arc requires that she came to terms with Vader (we see that at the time of Bloodline she has not yet reconciled with the fact that Vader indeed became Anakin Skywalker again before he died) and I strongly suspect that she will be able to do so because of her son. By knowing and believing that her son can be saved and brought back, she will be also able to finally reconcile with her father as well. This to me is very important and by the way things seem to be set up at present in the canon there is strong indication that this is what TPTB must be also thinking.

As to what SW stands for. It is surprising for me to see so many SW fans seemingly unable to understand that the most important message in the space fairy tale from GFFA is that the true win of the Light side is not one character who is Light defeats and kills the bad guy (the one on the Dark).
A true victory of the Light side is when a character who is dark conquers the Dark side in himself and then and only then the Light side can truly have "won".
This happened for both Luke and Vader in the OT.

To me the above two scenes must have been crucial for TPTB when thinking about how to continue the saga and the ST.

And the character most obviously set up to be the one that has to conquer his dark side is Kylo/Ben. Because of his heritage. Because of his complicated legacy.

Everyone should be rooting for Ben Solo's return to the Light!

His mother and father already do and we the audience, because we love and care about them should be rooting for their son to come back home as well. If that is not evident to some yet, it will become. There are two more films to make sure most of the audience understands it and accepts it. That is why it was set up so early.

As to Rey's role. It can go many ways. It also depends on what her parentage is and that is why the most heated discussions are around this. I personally hope that Kylo/Ben is the only new Skywalker and thus raise up the stakes enormously. I personally think that if Rey was somehow a Kenobi, the unresolved business between Obi-Wan and Anakin may now also find resolution in the ST, thus tying all 3 trilogies together. Or if not, another meaningful and profound way...

I do not see any issue with a good end (with redemption and without dying) for Han and Leia's son. This is a fairy tale. In a fairy tale it is something that can happen.

We can argue all we want, but it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere meaningful. So may we just accept that we see things differently at present and wait to see where TPTB are actually going to take the story and then we can argue some more...

#WaitForVIII

 

I'm not saying it's Leia's fault, just that she has tried and failed to help her son and also that this sort of thing should be down to the central hero of the piece.

Then her hero journey will be insignificant in comparison to Luke.
Luke became a destroyed the Death Star, became a Jedi, overcame the Dark Side and redeemed his father (who then was inspired to bring balance).
I think it will be a sad message for Rey not to be on the same level of heroism as her male predecessor.

I think Ren will look for an ally whilst Ben looks for a friend. That push and pull tension is what defines his character. The pull to the dark has won so far. Rey could be what is needed to pull him back into the light.

Cold-bloodedness requires dispassion. I think Ren was anything but dispassionate in the lead up to that event. Once cloaked in the darkness he found himself able to commit this terrible deed but the moments before and after are steeped with emotion, pain and regret.

Indeed. But the fact remains - he was conflicted before and after. He was in emotional pain before and after. He felt compassion before and after. If they wanted to turn him into a cardboard cutout of a bad guy villain then he wouldn't have felt conflict after this act. He'd have enjoyed it and become a true monster.

Balance was restored when Vader (and Sidious) were destroyed. Vader was destroyed however not upon Anakin's death but upon his act of redemption. He destroyed Vader when he let go of his attachments and killed Sidious. Likewise, should Ben return and help defeat Snoke in the process a similar event can take place.

Let's see how Rey feels once she faces the Dark Side properly. Let's see what happens when she has to choose between her friends, her duty and perhaps her family (and their past). Let's see what happens when this, and I quote, mysterious connection between her and Ren is explored further.

And what if she learns of how Ben was manipulated by Snoke from a very young age? What if she then feels that same pull of the Dark Side and can empathise with how he slowly turned to evil? What if she doesn't like Luke's training methods or something he has done in the past? You're dealing in absolutes whilst we're only a third way into this trilogy! There is a lot more story to come.

No, no different! Only in your mind! You must unlearn what you have learned!
If there is good in Kylo Ren and Rey sees it and understands his fall, then why can't she have compassion for him like Luke did his father?
This would in fact elevate Rey above Luke in terms of Jedism, as a Jedi should love everyone. And in feeling compassion for Ben, this will be a great thing for our hero. Luke knew what Vader had done - far worse things than Kylo Ren. And as much as it's horrible to see Ren murder his father, when the dust settles Rey may possibly see that Ben's parents were willing to sacrifice themselves to bring him back. She'll see that there is a person worth saving. And if she loved Han and Leia herself, she'd want to help them bring him back.

And you can point to the connection between Luke and Vader, but we're being told about a mysterious link between Rey and Ren. Time will tell what that link is. Soul mates? Kindred spirits? Siblings? Cousins? Lovers? Whatever, they're connected and Rey's entire story is intwined with his and his redemption.

 

I am on the "Leia has to play a huge part in Ben's redemption" side.

OT = a son redimes a father.
ST = a mother redimes a son.

Not to mention that Leia seems not to fully understand what happaned with Vader/Luke or she just does not seem to believe Luke.
That could be the way for her character to finally make peace with his father too, indirectly I mean. She could put herself in Luke's shoes.

Another clue may be that in TFA is Leia as Padme and Luke before about Anakin, that says "There's still good/light in him. I know it"

However, if Rey is not a Solo or a Skywalker... I guess Kylo may fall for Rey. But that does not imply his love will be requited.
Again:
Padme/Anakin = She loved him and died/he turned to the dark to save her (at least in his mind)
Rey/Kylo = She does not love him and will survive/he will turned to the light (and/or die) to save her (really)

But I love opposites, so...

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 27, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 27, 2017 ---

Little addition...

What does Obi Wan tell Anakin on Mustafar "You were my brother Anakin"

In a sense...
PT : a sibling did not redime his brother

 

And just when you tighten your grip on the concept...

...it slips through your fingers!



LUKE DIDN"T REDEEM VADER, VADER REDEEMED HIMSELF!!

Just like Kylo will - should he make the choice to heel-faced-turn. (Apologies for always picking on you when dodgy syntax comes up but I think it's a point that needs to be made and you don't bite back!)

My favourite (secular?) redemption definintion is "that one transformative act that pulls the soul up from a state of moral degeneracy". Other's can help by being inspirations, catalysts, or stimuli and inspiring evil to pursue good might involve hard work or may just entail being yourself.

I know this has been explored in the Reylo thread, but I think there's enough cues in TFA film and novel pointing to the villainous crush trope to justify people throwing around terms like obsession, infactuation, and captivation.

• Kylo took the girl who's seen the map rather than retrieving the droid who's intel would be dangerous in the enemies hands.
• Then there's the bridal carry trope.
• His treatment of Rey during interrogation vs Poe:
  • staring at her while unconscious
  • saying "I would have preferred to avoid this. Despite what you may believe, it gives me no pleasure. I will go as easily as possible."
  • his wandering eyes

• His treatment of Rey during the Duel:
  • When he takes out Rey by slamming her into a tree it is a tactical decision - she is the more dangerous opponent.
    
  • When she wields the legacy saber she often leaves her flank wide open yet Kylo does not exploit this opening and just follows her slowly using only disarming strikes and defending himself.
    
  • When she still won't yield he basically begs her to be his student instead of pushing her off a cliff.

But you're right - we do excel at extrapolation here! I guess it's the accuracy of our extrapolation that tends to vary wildly...

It's probably unavoidable that a protagonist's "worthiness" will be measured to some degree by the antagonist. But if their destiny's are intertwined, here's hoping for ways he is part of her hero journey that doesn't involve demeaning her or delegitimising her arc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rey is involved in Kylo's end and that a hero's compassion plays some part in it.


source

 

I thought I was a crazy old wizard, but this Reylo is beyond me... haha

 

@Moral Hazard

You know what I mean!

 

I just can't see the audience accepting the bratty teenager, who murdered probably the most popular character in the whole franchise, becoming a hero and a major love interest.

I don't accept the Snape argument - what we got from him was a bit of minor bullying and one big moment that was later explained in a totally new context. The rest of his 'crimes' were off screen. The audience never truly hated him. His villainy was comical; the stuff of panto. To do a retrospective U-turn on his character was easy.

Back to Star Wars.

I would much rather see a Rey/Finn love story than this bizarre Stockholme Syndrome scenario. There is already bags of on-screen chemistry between Rey and Finn. You could throw in a little Kylo jealousy to mix it up, but the idea that that could be anything more than brooding, unrequited obsession is a step too far for me.

Or...

If we really want a Kylo/Rey romance, then that would mark her fall to the darkside (and maybe Finn's role is to slay the evil wizard who has captured the princess and wake her from her spell with a kiss).

Either of those has got to be more interesting than a rehash of the themes of the OT. Otherwise with the ANH parallels in TFA we really could be heading for the same ending as RoTJ and that's just plain dull and lazy. Lucasfilm surely are better than that?

 

this, despite the vociferous defenders even in this very Cantina, who at least represent their percentage of the larger fandom?
#SaveBenSolo isn't even a small minority if the polls, etc. are any indication.

and i'm not even talking about Reylo ~ i just mean the number of people who don't see him as a "bratty teenager" or condemn him for murdering "the most popular character in the whole franchise."

Rey and Ben already have a connection. it remains to be seen how it will play out.
bewilderment over the desire to see Ben redeemed/have a second chance/God forbid happiness or love is actually...well, bewildering ~ hahahaha

i want for Ben what Han and Leia want for and from him: a return to the Light.
and grandchildren ~ hahahaha (hey, Leia said it; i'm just supporting her).

Rey as the hero of the ST is the obvious candidate to help that happen.

remember too that "fandom" is a minority of the entire audience for Star Wars and that even though the producers are making these movies for the fans, they are also making them to make new fans--you know, those people who don't care about Starkiller Base being a third Death Star and who would have to be told that Ben Kenobi called to Rey, and who think rathtars are oooo way cool.

ultimately most people (and especially children) like a fairy tale.
they don't care about "Mary Sues" or "Irredeemable Evil" or any of these issues we nit pick here to death.
largely because they aren't cynical and happiness makes them feel good.
it's a very basic need.

OT Star Wars inspired me and made me feel good as a child. i hope the ST does the same--and for this new generation of young fans as well.

 

it's fascinating that people see that scene that way.

i'm not knocking your opinion, far from it. I have said from the first viewing of TFA that Kylo Ren will challenge the audience, and i expect that challenge to increase once ep 8 comes out. Whatever is in store for Kylo Ren... we will be discussing him on boards like this for decades to come - which in itself shows how good a character they have created.

There is NO coming back from the dark side once you submit to it...
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will."

'forever'. there is no coming back... none. Anakin did the impossible, something no other has ever done before, and even then he lost his life in the process.

Han knew that he would most likely die when he walked onto that bridge. He believed that his son was still in there, or in the very least.. believed Leia that Ben was still in there and could be saved.

Han tugged at a thread on that bridge. his son is in there somewhere... in agonizing torment. If giving his life gave his son a 1% better chance of coming back.. i believe he would do it again if he had to make the decision over.

as blindly ridiculous as this may sound, if Han & Leia Solo think their son can be found and brought home... then so do i.

Rey clearly had an 'interesting' effect on Kylo during the times they were together. In my opinion, when we see him here..

..the thread that Han pulled on just received another very big tug. he is very very scared.. but not scared of being killed. That is Ben Solo staring at Rey.. and he is scared out of his mind.

again.. if one of the most popular character's in the whole franchise thinks there is hope for his son... why won't the audience? i know i do.

What Han did on that bridge was the most heroic and loving act of his life, and i will not dismiss what he hoped to achieve quite so easily as some do it seems.

 

I think if anyone will bring Ben Solo back, it has to be Leia and I'm sure this was intended as Leia's big scene in IX. Now with Carrie's passing we have to see. For sure an unknown stranger girl won't play any role in saving Kylo. Maybe Leia's voice from beyond can help him, or there is no redemption at all, which will be fine for me as well.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2017 ---

I agree 100% about audiences never accepting Kylo as a love interest for Rey, a woman he has tortured before.

 

eloquent and to the point.
anyone who ever truly loved Han should want to see his sacrifice save his son and heal his family.