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The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    61 vote(s)
    68.5%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    18.0%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    12 vote(s)
    13.5%
  1. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    Loved your analysis and it matches perfectly to what I think, or at least my interpretation, of the end.
     
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  2. SickBoy

    SickBoy Rebelscum

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    "Messy" and "rushed" are relative to your own experience of the movie - the pacing is fast, yes, but that doesn't equal rushed. However, what I mean when I said that "you didn't want to like the movie" is precisely this: "[they] made a lot of decisions I didn't want them to make".
    That is a fundamental errore in the way you watch movies: if you let your preconceived notion of "what decisions should be made" get in the way of your movie experience, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. This would be like asking "did the movie do what I wanted it to do?" and it's not the point. The point is "did the movie accomplish what IT WANTED to do?"


    Do you feel the same about Leia being Luke's sister? Because that wasn't set up anywhere at all in the two previous movies.
    The point I'm making is that SW movies (like most movies, really) are largely written as they go along. Technically, even Vader being Luke's father wasn't set up and, in fact, it can actually be considered as a gigantic retcon.
    As for the ST - the "Rey Nobody" thing is easier to retcon than Leia or Vader and, as I explained in my other post, having her being a Palpatine gives a complete arc, albeit a late one, to the "search" for her identity.

    Nope, this has nothing to do with the audience's POV and everything to do with Rey choosing the name Skywalker. As for the "I wonder how the conversation went" - again, that's you letting your own idea of how the movie should play out interfere with the actual movie (yes, I know it's meant as a joke: what I'm saying here is that you are trying to use rationality to mock something that is perfectly explained in the movie itself and in the saga as a whole).

    Sure. And they could have written an entirely different story. What's the point, here?

    While I do agree that "happy ending" are way over-rated and, most of the times, completely useless, TROS has an happy ending: the psychotic murderer found it in himself to do one, last, good thing before dying. The main character found her belonging where it means the most: within herself BEFORE than with/for anybody else. The good guys won, the bad guys were obliterated, the end.

    I honestly don't see how having a mass murderer survive the whole thing and being rehabilitated with a slap on his wrist could've been a "happy ending" - and having the lead character play family with said mass murderer would've been a "skin crawling ending" (and I love those, just not in SW movies).

    Doing something like that would have been the "prequel way to do things", aka "shameless fanservice". Anakin's lightsaber being passed down to Luke makes sense. Luke's saber calling to Rey through the Force makes sense. What sense does it make for Finn to receive Luke's or Leia's lightsaber? Where's the connection? What would be the theme in that?

    Because that already happened in the movie: she was with her friends exactly one scene before going on Tatooine.
    Also, I think you got the wrong message: Rey (like Finn and Poe) is looking for who she truly is. Friends, belonging, her "place" - all that stuff is a consequence of them finding out who they are.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 8, 2020 ---
    Thanks - I don't write much on this board but I have often agreed with what you said, as well :)
     
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  3. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    If you truly wanted to like this movie, you could focus on the positives and the things about it that worked for you instead of dwelling on the negatives and the stuff that you didn't like.

    MOD EDIT
     
    #63 DigificWriter, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2020
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  4. Pizza Time

    Pizza Time Rebel General

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    There are different movies for different people. You can't force yourself to like something you don't. Maybe it's just not for that person, and that's OK. That does not make them a hater.
     
    #64 Pizza Time, Jan 8, 2020
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  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Let's give some context to my comment as I originally posted it.

    I had very mixed feelings on The Force Awakens after seeing it in 2015; I had enjoyed it, but wanted to have enjoyed it more and didn't really understand the praise it was getting.

    Flash forward several months to a comic-book convention I attended and a panel discussing the film. During the course of said panel, one Bryan Young of the Full of Sith Podcast provided some insights into the film that I had not previously considered, and in allowing myself to consider said observations, my opinion of the film improved.

    In short, the only thing stopping me from enjoying TFA more than I had was my own bias, and when I allowed that bias to slip away, the issues that I had with it likewise slipped away.

    In my original comment, I was merely stating an opinion that if @NinjaRen stripped away his own personal biases, his opinion of TRoS would probably improve. I was not intending to come across as rude or attacking in any way, and I apologize.
     
    #65 DigificWriter, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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  6. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    JJ wanted to tell two movies in one. You can really tell that. Yes, JJ likes his movies fast. But usually he likes his movie edited this way: fast, slow, fast, slow. But TROS is edited- fast, fast, fast.

    If you are invested in something then you have expectations. Yes, these expecations are subjective. But to answer your question- no, I don't think the movie accomplished what it wanted to do.

    The argument about the OT not being planned is really outdated. George Lucas didn't know that he would make three movies back then. But Disney/Lucasfilm DID know that they will create a new trilogy.

    Burying or not burying the lightsaber doesn't change the meaning of her igniting the yellow saber. That's my point. If she had shown of her new lightsaber without burying Luke's and Leia's sabers, then it would feel exactly the same.

    But wasn't this already answered in TLJ? For me it was.


    Something off-topic: I enjoy arguing with you, @SickBoy, because you actually engage in the discussion and bring up actual insights without insulting anyone.

    ----------

    @DigificWriter, I've watched postive and negative reviews for TROS, I'm interacting with all kinds of discussions about this movie here in the Cantina, on Reddit and YouTube. I watched the movies for three times in the cinema (maybe I'm watching it a fourth time) and yes, there is stuff which I like. For example I pretty much like all the scenes with Kylo. But other then that, I'm disappointed. Some issues - which I have with the movie - are subjective, others are objective. So, I'm pretty sure I can decide whether I like something or not. In the end TROS is my least favorite part of the ST. Do I hate it? No, definitely not. Do I want to talk about the stuff I liked and disliked though? Hell yes! Nobody gains anything if you only praise the movie or only hate it.

    Regarding to 'improving my opinion'- TROS made me respect RJ and TLJ. But this thread isn't about how someone liked the movie or not. My intention of this thread is/was to communicate my opinion about the ending and to see other interpretations/feelings. So please go back to the actual topic.
     
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  7. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    You and I have very similar thoughts on this movie. Great comments.
     
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  8. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Okay, I think I misread the "what if?" in your previous post as a hypothetical interpretation, but you were intending it as an alternate possibility for the writers? That makes sense, sure and it's a possible resolution. Anything is possible.

    "Accept who you are and rise above it" is the theme of the narrative, you're just stating it in a different manner by dividing the theme into two parts. You're dividing into two. But we want to unify the two into one. Not division- unification. What I mean is, the statement "Rey Palpatine and I am a Jedi" is a two-fold expression of identity. Blood and spirit. "Rey Palpatine" identity by blood, "I am a Jedi" identity by spirit/idea.

    Now notice your interpretation of that statement "my grandfather is Darth Sidious BUT I am not from the dark side" (I would question the use of "Darth Sidious" in that statement as problematic, but that isn't really relevant to the spirit of your idea) - Rey is using blood as indicating identity BUT immediately switching to the disclaimer "BUT I am not from the dark side" - so Rey is saying in your statement that, though her identity by blood is beyond her choice, her identity by spirit is not. In your statement Rey is wanting to convey that her chosen spirit/heart-determined identity is more important to defining her than that of her unchosen blood-determined identity. "I am [this] BUT I am not from [that]" therefore we can simply shorten her reply to "I am [this]" with the [this] being determined by her spirit-determined identity.

    So, instead of "I am [this] BUT not [that]" or "I am [that blood] BUT not [that spirit]" we just have her say "I am [that spirit]". Instead of "I am of Palpatine blood BUT not of Sidious spirit" we just say "I am Skywalker" - because, again, I am [that] BUT not from..." is indicating that [that] does not define Rey as strongly or meaningfully as [this].

    Now as the narrative progesses, Rey does indeed accept that she is a Palpatine by blood, and she "rises above it" in the declaration of "Rey Skywalker" thus the story is called "The Rise of Skywalker". Skywalker, walking in the sky i.e. above. Rising from earth (material/concrete/blood) to walk in the sky (immaterial/idea/spirit) above.

    Now we have done the exact same thing, but in the "Rey Skywalker" method of resolving the theme, we have created a narrative which concludes the Skywalker saga, and leaves behind a significant Skywalker legacy. The family name being taken by those who are members of that family by way of idea/spirit. The Skywalkers remain in the story even though they have moved beyond the story. Now Rey literally and figuratively emobies the resolution as the "Skywalker legacy" since she is Rey Skywalker. The legacy is in the spirit, and the spirit is in the name. Now our resolution is not only relevant and poignant to the Sequel trilogy of Rey's story, it is relevent and poignant to the entire saga as a whole.

    So your alternate suggestion really only suggests that we state the same resolution in a different way, with the only ramifications being that we lose a great deal of signficance in relation to the saga as a whole. It's not merely a question of "What makes sense?" Rey Nobody. Rey Palpatine. Rey Solo. Rey Organa. They all make sense. But it's a question of "Which thing that makes sense provides the greatest significance of narrative depth in relationship to the other parts of the whole?" Rey Skywalker.

    I would also propose that "Rey Palpatine" is the least "realistic" of the choice based on my own personal reaal-world experience with the answer to the question "What is your name?" when asked of a person who had a biologically abusive father yet was raised by loving adoptive parents. The person will claim the family name of their loving parents - their "true" parents in their eyes. I've never once heard such a person take the family name of their abusive father.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 8, 2020 ---
    The narrative says that identity and familial relationship is determined by spirit. Rey chooses to identity herself by the name Skywalker. It's a fairly easy movement to see in the narrative, especially when the protagonist does that very thing in the resolution. If you give me the pattern, "2, 4, 6, 8 ..." then "10" isn't an interpretation - it's a conclusion based on following the movement of the statement.

    Here's an interesting thing to also take from this. "Give up your name and choose a new one" as you say. That's what Anakin and Ben did. They gave up their family name and chose a new one when they went to the dark side due to Sidious. Isn't it significant that Rey is the first Jedi that did something similar? By giving up her blood-family name to take up another? Just a thought.
     
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  9. JediJarJar

    JediJarJar Clone Commander

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    I would also propose that "Rey Palpatine" is the least "realistic" of the choice based on my own personal reaal-world experience with the answer to the question "What is your name?" when asked of a person who had a biologically abusive father yet was raised by loving adoptive parents. The person will claim the family name of their loving parents - their "true" parents in their eyes. I've never once heard such a person take the family name of their abusive father.[/QUOTE]

    True.
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Not gonna vote because I'm thoroughly in the middle for the ending.

    I saw a YouTuber named Just Write's video about TROS the other day and I agreed with a lot of what he said.

    The thing that struck a chord with me the most was when he posited that Rey take up the name Organa instead of Skywalker or Palpatine. Organa, the name of her Jedi master and maternal figure. Organa, the name of the ray (pun intended) of light in the galaxy through two wars. Organa, the one person in the Skywalker family who was unmistakably, unabashedly, thoroughly GOOD. Organa, the name of the one person who didn't fit Kylo's philosophy and the one person he couldn't bring himself to kill. Heck, Skywalker might be a name associated with legend in-universe, but Organa better be a name associated with strength and resilience. It'd also be a double-stinger. Leia herself was adopted, and so too does she pass down the name of the family that adopted her. Luke wasn't nice enough to Rey for her to accept his name. Accept the name of the one who cared.

    As for Ben...well, I'm not sad he died, and I DEFINITELY DO NOT WANT HIM TO LIVE WITH REY (I'm anti-Reylo FOR LIFE). But if he retired to Ach-To to live a quiet life among the Jedi relics like his Jedi Master before him, I wouldn't have complained too much.

    The name Skywalker could have been a Jedi rank above Master, cementing their legacy as Jedi and how they can live on within all of use. We can all be Skywalkers.
     
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  11. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi Commander

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    How many of us of certain ages already played at being a Skywalker as kids I wonder? Pretty sure I did. I remember having an 80s plastic lightsaber, I have no idea what happened to it, maybe I went to the beach one day and buried it in the sand...?! :D

    In-universe, anyone could choose to be a Skywalker. And maybe Rey will indeed go off and train a new generation of ‘Skywalker-Jedi’. :)
     
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  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Ha! Maybe I'm too young then! I was raised on the OT, but grew up with the PT coming out. With so many Jedi existing, I didn't feel the need to be attached to the Skywalker family (and Obi-Wan's lightsaber was cooler than Anakin's anyways...but Luke's green one was the best). I could be a Jedi, because if there was a galaxy full of them, who's to say I'm not one? ;)
     
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  13. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi Commander

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    Interesting. But yes, I think we can all be Jedi, if we want, in our daily lives, from a certain point of view. Not necessarily jumping off buildings and carrying swords around,:D but in terms of acting selflessly and trying to be part of the solution rather than the problem, that’s something we can all aspire to do, if we so choose. :)
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    when i was a kid, the Luke character always had to be "assigned".
    i wanted to be a snowtrooper.
    everyone else wanted to be Han Solo or Darth Vader.
    i guess Vader counts as a Skywalker, right? XD

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Pizza Time

    Pizza Time Rebel General

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    Hit the nail on the head with that one. That's one of the themes of Star Wars, to act selfless and help others. We can all be Jedi.
     
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  16. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    We all did, I guess. But I also liked to play as Obi-Wan and Boba Fett (or in general as bounty hunter). Haha!
     
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  17. Pizza Time

    Pizza Time Rebel General

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    I had this Darth Vader figure with a removable helmet and a Ewok Village c3po. I would always wonder why the c3po had a silver leg. I think I played as anyone I could though.
     
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  18. oldbert

    oldbert Jedi General

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    Sorry for going off topic..but after reading through the posts about lightsabers here I got weak and my son and I ordered our first two sabreforge sabers.

    I also remember now that I posted elsewhere here (after watching TFA) that Rey has fighting moves like Sheeve and guessed her own sabre being yellow :D
    .. even though I was more in the nobody camp.
     
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  19. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    [​IMG]
    Last pair that I made...​
     
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  20. oldbert

    oldbert Jedi General

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    That's great indeed, making you own ones..
    You are one your way to become a true Jedi, ups.. ehh no,
    has to be a Sith in your case :D
     
    #80 oldbert, Jan 9, 2020
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