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SPOILER The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    52 vote(s)
    71.2%
  2. No

    13 vote(s)
    17.8%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    8 vote(s)
    11.0%
  1. oldbert

    oldbert Jedi General

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    Thanks for teaching me a lesson. I have a son (16) and a daughter (10) and I think I know at least sthg about kids.
    And reading as carefully as you do you might have recognized that I try very much to not criticize anything without context or thinking carefully about how to tell it. Like everyone else I liked parts of the PT, OT and ST. I was just a little bit unhappy about how the whole thing ended up, especially in the last part of TROS on Exogol.
    I was really excited to have a female lead in the ST because I thought I could watch the whole thing together with my daughter on DVD when she is old enough to enjoy it without fear.
    Now I am not sure anymore if I want to show TROS to her before she gets 18 (I am joking here).
    You see, like everyone, I have very personal reasons to like sthg or parts of it or to feel uncomfortable about it.
    You don't have to agree with me. No worries.
     
    #121 oldbert, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  2. Sansa Snark

    Sansa Snark Clone

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    While I much preferred the Tatooine ending in Revenge of the Sith, I did enjoy this one too. I can see the argument over why would Luke and Leia want their lightsabers buried there, but it was the planet where everything all began for them with Shmi and I can see Rey going there to bury their lightsabers there in a place where it would be hard for anybody else to find them and potentially corrupt the legacy they have. Idk if it was well known that is where Luke came from that but makes sense to me.

    Also I think Rey herself still wasn’t sure who she really was despite knowing the truth until the old woman asked her. When she said Skywalker, it felt right for her because Luke and Leia played an important role in her life at a crucial time period of discovering her identity. Looking at the suns was also a way to embrace that and played a symbolic act.

    And it was nice to see Luke and Leia at each other’s side one last time.
     
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  3. iostream

    iostream Clone Commander

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    Well, I take it you must've skipped that last part before you constructed your previous statement. See it's like we have two instances of a group of firefighters going into a burning orphanage, and some of the old firefighters give their lives so that the younger firefighters can beat the odds and save all the orphans. And when you describe the first as an example of, heroic bravery in defiance of the odds but the second as a downright tragedy unbefitting of being retold - well if I didn't know any better I'd suspect you must have some kind of personal grudge against that second group of heroes causing you to paint their story in a different light than the first.

    I suppose since it was pretty much a reprise of the ROTJ throne room scene she should be able to watch both of them around the same age along with the entire saga. Maybe not ROTS, though. That's the one episode that actually is a tragedy.

    Oh personal reasons are personal, sure. As long as we're not saying "2+2=5" or "blue isn't blue" for personal reasons, we can agree to disagree in an agreeable fashion. Take it easy out there and, good luck with the kids. I know they can be a handful at times.
     
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  4. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Ok I give that to you on the 1st, but as so many go on that stuff wasnt shown on screen. If you hand read the novelization or didnt recall that line (I did read the novelization). I dont know if it is forgiveness to not allow someone to kill me because I did something that caused my own death as forgiveness.

    See your friends 24/7 thats not what you are talking about. You are basically talking about hiding the relationship. Ben goes somewhere and Rey either occasionally sneaks away to visit. Or she stays with Ben and occasionally leaves to visit friends. Sorry that is not healthy.

    How long do you want the movie to be for the kids to see how Ben deals with them.

    Lay out an alternative ending which shows this. In this ending Ben goes somewhere besides the Resistance base. He then starts atoning for his sins, the galaxy doesnt know he is alive and Rey has to sneak off to see him.
     
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  5. iostream

    iostream Clone Commander

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    Now hold on there stephied, I'm going to have to reply to your post because it doesn't ring true to me. Or at the least you've got some misunderstanding of the narrative construct creeping into your thoughts. That last scene is a resolution to the scene that happened earlier in the movie in which the little girl asked Rey her name, and after Rey replied "Rey" the girl wanted to know her family name, to which Rey responded she didn't have one. Now in the resolution that's being brought back around to create cohesion in resolution of the narrative theme - which is about a girl finding her family roots.

    For Rey to say, "Rey, Jedi Knight, like the Skywalkers before me" doesn't create any resolution of theme and now that previous scene, let alone the entire theme of the ST relative to the scavenger girl without a family name looking to discover who she is, well it just doesn't have any place in the story. This is the first question she's asked by BB-8 at the beginning of her journey. Remember that scene where BB-8 asks her "bleep BOOP?" (Rey who?) and Rey responds "top secret" (or something to that effect)? That's setting the theme into motion. That's the proverbial arrow being fired toward a target at the end of the girl's journey.

    So what you're actually preferring is a "resolution" which has nothing to do with the theme or any of the motifs guiding that theme. You're preferring a "resolution" that causes the narrative motion to end up falling flat on its face. Preferring that the arrow flies through the air, then misses the target as a gust of unrelated wind hurls it away from the target into left field. So you're tugging at the thread at the end, thinking you can do so without unraveling the entire tapestry. But you can't. So your suggestion shows a lack of understanding of how a narrative is woven together into a meaningful whole.

    "Rey, Jedi Knight, like the Skywalkers before me" has no thematic poignancy, it's a really clumbsy final bit of dialogue, it adds no newness at all to the depth of the narrative, it doesn't fit the scene in the slightest, and it contributes nothing to the saga as a whole. Much like most internet criticism, you're really saying, "Instead of a poignant resolution adding depth to the narrative which connects in multiple ways to the ST and the saga as a whole, I would have preferred that the writers would've had the resolution fall flat on its face. That's what I would've done."

    And, yes, while that is what you would've done, it's not exactly good. It's bad. Like, really bad. Then we'd have an alternate reality where you're here saying, "I can't believe they ended that with 'Rey, Jedi Knight, like the Skywalkers before me'!" and I'd be sitting here in silence, unable to defend their awful decision to wreck the narrative into a brick wall. Luckily(?), I'm in this reality and not that one. What I'm saying here is that if you're planning to become a writer? Well, I wouldn't quit my day job if I were you.

    You see at the end, Luke and Leia are there as she thinks about the question "Rey who?" What do you think is the significance of showing the two appearing to her, smiling as she considers the question of "Rey who?" which is asking "What family?" You choose to use the word "usurping" and that's a powerful negative to choose to employ against Rey's decision. Would you use the same word to describe a child who was adopted choosing to use the family name of the people that raised her?

    I've got a friend who took in a boy and when it came time for that boy to choose which family name he'd go by, he chose the family name of my friend. Now, the funny thing it; my friend, he seemed to take that in a good way. He seemed proud. Kind of, happy, even. Can't understand why he'd be smiling as he looked at the boy, seeing as how according to you the boy had usurped his name and legacy. Well, I suppose people see things might be dependant on the state of their mind. Best case scenario, I'd guess you'd see things the same way as my friend saw it. But, for some reason, you're seeing things differently here. Like, something's bent your thoughts toward a darker perception that - all things being unmanipulated - wouldn't be your normal state of perception.

    Be honest with me. Who was it that put these thoughts in your mind? You bent your perception so as to see things the way you're seeing them? Which video did you watch?

    Kind of like a Cher thing, huh?

    That's true. But, then again, Yoda wasn't the protagonist in a story structured around the narrative motion of finding family roots.

    Well, you've certainly used a lot of subjective terms to describe your criticism. I suppose that's the normal method of your general critic population. Use subjective terms so you can hide from criticism by saying something without saying anything at all. Hey what does the word "pacing" mean, anyway? How can I tell when something has "too fast pacing"? I always wanted to be able to use that word in a meaningful way but to this day can't figure on what it actually means.

    Nothing quite as depressing as a person giving their life to save another. Still don't know why they give medals and make statues for that type of tragedy.

    See, that's odd I thought I saw Luke and Leia smiling at the end of the film? Though I saw Anakin smiling at the end of the last one. I guess tragedy makes Skywalkers happy? Well, you know what they say, to each his own.

    And you're sure you know what the word "tragedy" means? Come on, now. Be honest with me. Who was it put these thoughts into your head? Which of the luminous internet critic personalities do we have to thank for teaching you how to think this way?
     
    #125 iostream, Jan 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  6. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    Man, it must be so hard being so smart and right all the time! :rolleyes:
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I haven't read the novel, but I still saw it as forgiveness. JJ even mentioned it in the commentary. So, it was definitely intended to be obvious.

    Furthermore Han forgave his son for killing him, not the other way around. Kylo killed his father, but Han still loved him after the deed.

    She doesn't need to hide her relationship from her friends. Her friends will understand and support her. That was always the message of SW.

    I just wanted him to survive, then the EU can focus on his journey to redemption. A Disney+ series about Ben Solo after IX. I think everyone would have wanted to see this.
     
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  8. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    The movie should have ended with a living Ben Solo and a pregnant Rey staring off into the twin suns.
     
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  9. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    How about "No".

    I love both characters, but they didn't need to have a "happy ending" in order for their collective journey to work, and there's nothing objectively wrong with the decisions that JJ and Terrio made.
     
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  10. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    I also think so. They could have made a big deal of Ben's redemption to make it very clear the old evil character inside him was totally gone. I think that was very well done by TROS but they could have gone further by having him get some physical disability, total force ability loss or something very transformative, like the loss of vision or some other trait or ability. They could even have made him mechanically supported like his grandfather.

    Ben would not have been accepted well by others if he had survived, but Rey could make it clear that she stands by him and that "no one is really ever gone". This would eco Luke, Han Solo and Leia in believing in hope and that no one is ever really gone. Ben would have come home. The tale of the Skywalkers would be over, to then be born and rise again, now in a new era. The Sith could have ended. I wouldn't mind the Jedi as they were to have ended as well. Nothing against a new Order though. Their union could mean balance was finally restored. They could have renounced to their powers or be part of some political solution for the galaxy where Ben would take part in the healing of all the wounds he inflicted or was behind. We could have new Skywalkers, the offspring of the dyad of the force. That could lead to a new trilogy exploring that.

    This would be my preference, but I understand other fans would have wanted something else or are totally fine with TROS' ending. To me it was a sad ending, and would have preferred a more happy ending.
     
    #130 greenbalrog, Jan 14, 2020
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Sorry for the belated response. This is the first chance I’ve had to actually read through this post and digest it. And I’m glad I did. This is a well thought out dissertation on the themes and I appreciate the attention to detail.

    When I state “far above” I’m referring with respect to Rey’s personally established goals: find her family (belonging) and grasp this mysterious power she has. Yes, Luke is critical to Rey’s journey. And yes, It’s a powerful reciprocal relation - he runs from his obligations out of the semi-justifiable fear he’ll only contribute negatively just as she does. He coaxes her from that faulty conclusion, just as she had for him. That shouldn’t be discounted. That’s a solid connection. I very much appreciated that element of TROS.

    However, what did Luke actually contribute to Rey’s personal goals? What she herself is truly in search of in terms of self-discovery? Rey came to him desperate for belonging and understanding. Luke intentionally refused her both. He did not want to offer belonging and the only understanding he wished to offer was in terms of dissuasion. He believed, at the time, it was in her best benefit, but ultimately he was wrong. The net effect was the same though: Luke rejected Rey.

    Who though, from what’s discernable of the narrative, embraced her without hesitation (literally)? Who provided her that belonging she needed? Who provided her with further guidance in understanding the Force? Who coaches her from where we leave her in TLJ to where we find her again in TROS? From “How do we build a Rebellion from this?” to “Be with me.” It isn’t Luke. It’s Leia. She fulfilled the parental figure Rey was established to have been longing for. She fulfilled the family Rey was longing to form. She fulfilled the role of mentor and teacher in the Force.

    Granted, we have to infer a good deal as the meat of this takes place between episodes, but the presentation is pretty clear. Rey had grown considerably during this significant stretch of time and it was a product of the tutelage under her “master” Leia.
    Although I’m not a huge fan of the revelation, TROS made rather blatant (and clumsy) effort to convince us that Leia was every bit the Jedi as Luke. She’d simply walked away from that path in similar regard to how Luke had - to protect others.
    And I very much disagree. Leia was absolutely presented as a significant mentor who helped Rey at her lowest. After she’d been rejected by Luke, betrayed by Ben, and witnessed the decimation of the Resistance. She had a couple musty books, the barest of inclination about the Force, and little else. Leia provided the rest. The Rey we get at the beginning of TROS is most definitely in great part due to Leia’s support. "We have everything we need."
    I absolutely agree. The name ‘Skywalker’ was established to be synonymous with the concept of ‘hero’. Rey claiming that identity isn’t just her taking a name, it’s her announcing to the galaxy a specific intent and purpose. She’s taking up the mantel as a symbol of courage and fidelity - a figurehead that others can look to, take comfort in, and be inspired by. It folds wonderfully into what was founded with TFA and TLJ. As a capper for this trilogy, it makes splendid thematic sense.

    However, again, very little (in my observation) of TROS’s story really deals with this concept directly. I personally don’t recall the Skywalker name being invoked much at all in dialogue - its weight or resonance acknowledged or reinforced. What does that name mean to Rey herself? To everyone else? The pieces are there, but it’s all implicit in this movie. The audience is invited to make inferences that aren’t really supported by the actual text of THIS film.

    One of those larger inferences is that Rey and Leia have a substantial bond that’s formed during the time jump. A bond that, in my interpretation, would matter more to Rey personally and more profoundly in regard to her stated goals and prominent theme of birth family versus found family. It could have been unified, but in my opinion, is muddled.
    And I again agree with this perspective. Broomy Broomerson represents the reignited hope achieved by Luke’s return: the thesis statement of the ST. Rey is the extension of that aim - its embodiment and continuation. It’s an A:B correlation. I, myself though, just don’t see where that’s present within the narrative of TROS. Where is it addressed that the hope Luke seeded had taken hold in the people and given face by Rey? I just don’t recall that being an element to this particular installment of the story.

    Again, I’m not advocating for ‘Rey Organa’ (O-Rey-ga-NO). It doesn’t fit with this trilogy’s overarching ethos at all. But, with respect to what the Rey character herself was established to have prized in the previous episodes, and what role Leia is implied to have assumed in THIS episode, and Leia’s notable disassociation with that name in general - it does make more consistent character sense to me. I understand if you disagree. Different strokes and such :)
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I know I'm a bit late here, but I absolutely agree with this, for a couple of reasons.

    First, I've legitimately seen people brand others as "facsists", "racist", "sexist", etc for simple things such as being a Reylo or enjoying the aesthetic of some of the Imperial ships and units. Like, I get it- in real life, these things are problematic. And yes, if you're not careful your reading of fiction can serve to help inform your real life outlook on some issues. But I think that it's far more responsible and effective to advocate for responsible interpretations of the series' textual message than it is to label people's entirely fictional interests with real life terms (that, honestly, kinda belittles the actual atrocities those groups performed).

    Obviously there are exceptions to this (the "Empire was Right and Justified" crowd is a healthy dose of cringe and gross excuses).

    Also, from a sort of moral philosophy standpoint, applying some sense of standard sense of justice to all fiction really makes things boring. It's sort of like Abed's "scary story" on Community, where the protagonists make all of the most optimally rational decisions.



    If every piece of media was expected to adhere to having its story follow the exact same moral code, then things would become even more predictable than they already are. Batman wouldn't exist, Game of Thrones would've never happened, entire genres like comedy and horror would probably be gone. We'd just have a never ending cavalcade of samey "Good vs Evil, In Which Good Triumphs" stories with no stakes.

    Part of the drama of media is that we become invested in characters who have flaws, who may not make morally or strategically optimal decisions. And that's okay- we can recognize their flaws, without becoming actually incensed about it.

    So, could Reylo have happened, with a Redemption (and no transactional death) in the end? Sure, why not?

    I think it's kind of a stretch to say that Ben would've been welcomed with open arms back into the Republic and the ewoks would throw a party for him, but that's one of pretty much countless possibilities.

    I don't personally mind the ending we got, but I really don't think that it was the only possible outcome for redemption, and I'd even argue that thinking it was is harmfully limiting to the series' potential.
     
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  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    I don't think anyone has said that Ben's death was the "only avenue for his redemption".
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Neat, you're lucky.

    I definitely have. A lot.

    Basically, they argue that Ben could be redeemed only in death, and anything else would be injustice.

    Which, as I mentioned earlier- I'm not a big fan of trying to limit a story by presuming absolutely what can or cannot happen.
     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I think an important thing to keep in mind is redemption and atonement are different things. You can show a redemptive act like they did. Atonement is much more difficult. The mass of characters and galaxy has to buy into the start realistically so that the audience does. Then and only then can the character go on a journey of atonement.
     
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  16. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    I've also seen a lot of "he had to die for his crimes" takes.
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Yeah, that’s a pretty dangerous mindset. It’s effectively saying that rehabilitation isn’t possible. That people can’t grow or change or evolve or improve. That everyone who has strayed is irreparable and a lost cause. Why would anyone ever strive to become a better person if the overwhelming consensus is that it wouldn’t matter anyway? I can’t see that as anything other than harmful.

    That being said, I do entirely understand the push back on the ‘Reylo’ premise. The Kylo/Rey interactions in TFA, in my opinion, display all the visual language of an attempted assault. Rey being the bigger person and using the scope of compassion and forgiveness to see past his actions to the decent person beneath, I’m a big fan of. That then developing into a romantic relationship though - the victim falling in love with the attacker, that makes me really uncomfortable as the father of a young daughter. Not on board with that. Not one bit.
     
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  18. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    They're enemies in TFA, full stop, so I could definitely see why you'd say that. I think the difference in the interrogation scene for Poe vs. Rey is deliberate and is supposed to tell you something because it's a striking difference.

    Do you take issue with The Beauty and the Beast? Just curious.
     
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  19. iostream

    iostream Clone Commander

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    Honestly, it is. As a wise man once said, "With wisdom comes heartache. The greater your knowledge, the greater your pain." But like all proverbs, you can't understand it unless you understand it.

    In regards to the spirit of your reply, it's not the first time my criticism of criticism was met with nothing more than an irrelevant insult, and it won't be the last, and I don't hold it against anyone in the end. But I'd be remiss in not pointing out once again - doesn't your own insult come back to point at you? Am I not merely criticizing your criticism? If the act of criticizing earns one the insult of "Man, it must be so hard being so smart and right all the time!" then haven't you earned that insult yourself by engaging in the act of criticism?

    The difference between us is that my criticism of your criticism is supported by reason. You had constructed a false analogy by equating a construct which requires mental conceptualization of narrative motifs and movement leading toward a resolution which can only be appreciated in the proper mental contextual frame of reference, with the surface of a visible cake. The two things are not at all a proper or reasonable analogue.

    MOD EDIT
     
    #139 iostream, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2020
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  20. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Rebel Official

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    That's what I wanted to see if Ben was to be redeemed. Star Wars has a habit of saying "redemption equals death," and maybe it does, but atonement is a far more hopeful - and far more interesting - story. Rurouni Kenshin, Avatar: The Last Airbender, and even My Hero Academia do this extremely well. Game of Thrones does this less well, but good enough for some characters. The Stormlight Archive has some interesting possibilities.
     
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