The Last Jedi = The end of the Jedi Order

The New Jedi.
Thats essentially what we will get. Rey and that lot. I think its just a way to find a way out of the film loop star wars has got itself it.

after this trillogy I don't think it will always be a blue lightsaber vs a red lightsaber.

I think it will be All lightsabers vs something else.

If Kylo joins Luke/Rey- is redeemed. I think it will be them (the grey/united force users) against something else. Like so, the Jedi and the sith need to join ala The Dark Crystal. Because hate and violence only breed more hate. Luke is looking for a way out of the cycle. a way to bring permenant balance to the light and dark.

a way to admit that the shadow is an essental part of the light. thats my feeling on this direction and I think it will involve Kylo and Rey vs Snoke in IX

 

The OT Jedi are mysterious mystics who are never truly comprehended by the audience: which is intentional.
The PT Jedi are zealous dogmatics who's portrayel has the unintentional result of demystification.

 

Stillwatch I sincerely hope your theories are not true.....do you really think that Disney would purposely undo the central concept of the Force and the OT/PT out of spite or some hidden agenda? If the Snoke as an extragalactic alien is true I will be truly disappointed.

 

Snoke is Plagueis. After all the counter spinning of the fans......he still is.

Besides, as if Disney has a say in Lucasfilm's stories. They only do marketing. Lucasfilm has a complete carte blanche.

 

Something to remember is that we aren't 2/3rds of the way through a 9 part saga. we're just over half way through a 12 part saga.

There will be another trilogy a while after this one concludes. and Rey/Finn/Kylo/Hux/Poe will all return as older characters. in their late 30's I'd guess from Reys point of view.

So what you want infinite jedi sith showdowns at the end of every Star Wars saga film?

How about we have Luke and Rey wrap up this Jedi sith thing and let Rey return when she's a trained force sensitive with a couple of followers on a couple plants and have them fight a whole bunch of extra-galactic folks-

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Or alternatively, and this is my absolute favourite version- Have Kylo Ren do what Vader wanted to do- Have him unite and free the galaxy and in the next trilogy we can see him as a full on dark lord guy. ala an inverted Luke Skywalker. so Kylo trains dark jedi and such, while Rey is hunted and gathering followers to her now dead religion. I would love this trillogy to be the rise of a legitimate dark side master. we have never seen that. Where he confronts Snoke and wins and then gets to rule a galaxy.

I would totally go for Kylo Ren ruling a united galaxy trying to fight all the extra-glalctic snoke blast, with Hux as his right hand man. while he still hunts Rey for her abilites or something. I would go the Dune route with this, get the Star Wars inter galactic

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Whatever happens after 9 films we're due a change. and things are starting to look a little Dune to me.

 

Star Wars, under Lucas, was always about this:

Everyone has the dark side within, so there's a constant struggle to do the right thing. The good side is compassion and caring about other people, the dark side is greed and self-centeredness.

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The message is you can't possess things. You can't hold on to them. You have to accept change. You have to accept the fact that things transition. And so, as you try to hold on to things or you become afraid of -- that you're going to lose things, then you begin to crave the power to control those things. And then, you start to become greedy and then you turn into a bad person.

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The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion - of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides - the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.



Now, if the Jedi are to be discarded, then it's a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Sure, you can replace the Jedi as you can replace the Sith, but essentially it'll be by name only. This idea that you can "embrace a larger view of the Force" is simply Dark Side trickery! For "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will". Lucas explained this time and time again - the Dark Side is about greed. This greed leads to anger, hatred and suffering. And so if a Force user thinks they can hold onto their greed and anger and still do the right thing they are wholly mistaken. And what kind of mythological moral tale for kids would suggest such a thing?! The Dark Side isn't a tap you can turn on and off!

What cannot be denied was that the Jedi of the PT era had many flaws. And that even going into the OT they were not perfect. But it strikes me that Luke's role is to then iron out the flaws and build a stronger, better order. I see no good reason to completely change the direction of the Jedi. I mean, you have to ask yourself, what is a Jedi? And to me it is clear - a person that aligns themselves wholly with the light side of the Force, who is wholly compassionate and selfless. Above all else they're trained to let go of those emotions that are on the greedy side of the spectrum and do what is right by the whole. It's about being connected to all living things rather than separated. Selflessness over greed.

Amongst many things, the PT Jedi were wrong in their focus. They didn't concentrate on the moment as Qui Gon would say - or more specifically, were too reliant upon the cosmic rather than living Force and were caught out by the Sith because of this. Going into the OT and Yoda saw these mistakes. He saw the PT Jedi were fearful and needed to face the Dark Side head on to overcome it. He also saw that he needed to place more trust into the living Force rather than trying to control events with his power and looking into the ever changing future. He passed all this on to Luke and it were these teachings that enabled Luke to resist the Dark Side which in turn brought about the redemption of his father and destruction of the Sith.

The other thing that is clear from Lucas' films is that the balance wasn't about numbers of Jedi and Sith. It was about the balance of good and evil, light and dark across the galaxy. "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance", Lucas once said showing how as the Sith emerged, the balance went more and more out of sync. Come Revenge of the Sith evil was everywhere and thus the balance was shot. So the balance was about evil being spread across the galaxy which of course the Sith were very adept at. The Jedi's role then, hence Lor San Tekka's comment, is about destroying this evil threat so that balance can return - not the destruction of all evil but the end to those who empower evil over good in the galaxy. When Anakin kills the Sith, the power behind the Empire which is oppressing the galaxy is removed and hope is restored. Good and evil are equal again = that is the balance. And when there are no Jedi, evil will take over again. That's what happened before and as we see with Luke's exile, it happened again.

And so this is why the idea that Luke seriously means the Jedi must end, concerns me. It makes no sense morally and contradicts that which the maker set up. If Luke does away with the Jedi, what does he replace it with? What could be better than an order that is selfless, compassionate and is willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good? A possible answer I believe is the question. During the PT and likely after the events of ROTJ, the Jedi's natural ally The Republic, doesn't necessarily abide by the greater good. Thus that idea of the Jedi Order can be no more. It has to completely separate from the Republic, from politics. In that sense alone, it won't be the same Jedi Order. That Jedi order must die and a new one be built in its place.

However, I believe there is even more to this. I think Luke's comment relates back to his own family origins - created by the Dark Side of the Force or not, the Skywalker's have off the chart power and the brighter the light, the bigger the shadow. This power is dangerous and at some point will result in doom for the galaxy. Luke must know this and seeing his nephew follow in the footsteps on his father, he must see that it is perhaps time for the Skywalker family to end. But being the last Jedi, the end of the Skywalker's will in turn mean the end of the Jedi. I just don't think that means for good - and we can see that Luke does train Rey so something comes next. And I see no reason to call this new order anything other than "The Jedi". But it will be new. It will be an order not resurrected but built from scratch with a very different purpose and structure. It won't be attached to the state. It won't hide from the Dark Side but face it and overcome it. And it will perhaps not seek to place power above wisdom. That will be the new Jedi that Rey will create. It's not about moving towards the grey but being more adept at resolving it - becoming better keepers of the balance between light and dark.

"It is time for the Jedi to end...and be made anew".

 

You are viewing things very one sided. In the OT the Jedi were KNIGHTS not just mystics. Obi-Wan was remembered as one who fought in the Clone Wars. There was always more than one facet to them.

Zealous dogmatics? The only dogma they truly showed- Anakin was too old to be trained they back pedaled on allowing Anakin to be trained. (Which Yoda disagreed) notice you only hear about the view of attachments while Anakin is flirting with Padme. Lastly when he broke the dogma of attraction it resulted in what, the slaughter of sandpeople and a careening fall to the darkside.

Plaguis is dead. If you believe that then you are lost

 

I'm not him, but I think so

 

The Light side being the Force itself is still a ridiculous notion. I don't care if it is canon it's still stupid for any fictional story. Being angry doesn't make every force user a monster. The Force is what you perceive it as for the most part. The Guardians of the Whills I think are right to believe to draw from the Forve as a whole. Not just light or dark or grey which (is a thing it's part of canon because of the Bendu.) btw I'm prepared to route for the bad guys if the just make a new Jedi Order as narrow as the old Jedi order.

 

good post man, really good points.

You're always and advocate of the jedi order, which is nice. I'm not a massive fan myself but your points all stand up.

as for what a Jedi is, in this Post-Lucas GFFA I'd like to know what you think about the character Chirrut Imwe and how he is identified specifically as 'not a jedi' but based on your description of them, he is a better jedi than many we say on screen.

I also think the removal of the order of Jedi by luke is about going back to original jedi/whils teachings, not being involved with republics or empires directly and simply listening to the will of the force and the light inside you.

Lucas's original idea about greed/letting go makes loads of sense. but did you see the prequel era jedi temple? those guys were loaded and rich. I don't think he wrote them very well as warrior monks, he seemed confused by their place in the bigger galactic picture. I think I heard that the Knights of the round table was a big influence on his design of them...and like, really knights are just henchmen for their king. it didn't suit them to be tied to polotics, it made no sense in regards to the OT jedi code.

In my head the perfect example of a 'Jedi' is ESB Yoda. hes got it figured. confront your fears in the cave and overcome them! he makes luke walk a darkish path in order for Luke to see the light. I think thats the bit about embrasing both the dark and light. and the lack of the PT jedi order to let people experience the dark is actually what fustrated anakin because he never got to confront and move past his grief. he never got to confront and let go of his fears. I think Yoda learned from that, thus ESB Yoda is more 'Jedi' in my head,

seems luke is on a simmilar path.

 

Yes anyone who believes Plagueis is dead, is absolutely lost. You're damn right.

 

The Last Jedi=The Last One's of Their Kind

Let's all face it. The Jedi are going to be extinct after this trilogy. How that will happen I don't know. (FO Victory) But after this, it will be the light vs dark. Not the Sith vs Jedi.

 

I like everything you are saying to a point. But you seem to equate Republics with Empires. The fact that Jedi were knights implies service to a cause. Which in brief explanation was "guardians of peace and justice in the old republic." The fact that they served a democratic system as opposed to a tyrannical system is wrapped up in their very first introduction.

The fact that Republics can become corrupt and orders that serve them might become complacent doesn't mean that the ideal is wrong. It means that it can succum to evil and manipulation. The ideal isn't flawed but corruption and complacency are.

 

You may be right. But if so its no longer is a cohesive narrative and severs itself from the vision and philosophy of the guy who created it and makes those changes diminishing the OT. Jedi is not just a word that can get tossed it is intrinsic to the narrative so far.

You can start a new order of Jedi, you can say that the old order is dead but have people try to live out those ideals (thus simply humbly refusing the title but basically being jedi), but if you waltz out and dash the jedi as deluded or wrong or flawed then you lose the positive goal of the OT that the Jedi Retuned.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

Its good to see the crazed zealots of the Plaguean Inquision are still with us.

 

I don't think there's any possibility the Jedi will end. Although I read somewhere that that was Lucas's plan for the ST, I don't think LFL would ultimately do it.

Instead we're going to see the Jedi return to their roots, to their original ideology before they became dogmatic (overly binary) and bureaucratic.

At most, perhaps we'll see a slight revision of their name, maybe to something like the Jedi Bendu. But I doubt the order will ever completely end. The storytellers are just doing their job -- making us concerned for the thing we fans love.

 

This is one of the ways Star Wars is interesting. it always reflects a feeling of the actual political climate (majoritivly America's) and most the folks who work and write in Hollywood are left leaning. I think that is a fundamental reason that Luke would be write to break up the Jedi.

If the very idea of the Jedi Order is tied to serving politicians and government then they can never be truly benevolent or peace keepers on a galactic scale. they would always be glorified guards, protecting the peace and interest of only one governing system. and without an imposed set of rules forcing all planets to fall in line (ala a galactic empire) then all the planets would never be under the Jedi's protection, then the Jedi would never be able to free the slaves on Tatooine or help separatist planets as it wouldn't be in the interest of the 'republic'. To me, what you said fully expains how the Jedi Order were unable to be truly peaceful or truly Just. Only by following the inner voice, the force, the more Zen ways of being can you truly be benevolent, and if your paid by some politician then you cant follow the inner voice.

 

Hi there! It's good to see you too Mr Barndog.

 

Who said anything about serving the needs of politicians? Republics in the ideal are people picking leaders to represent their needs. Typically with rights guaranteed. Thus service to the Republic would be service to the people of the Republic its ideals, the rights of its people and justice.

Are you suggesting that the Separatists whose first act on screen was the military conquest of a planet because they wanted to steal control of trade routes. Rich trade guilds killing people, over running the planet so they can then restrict travel and trade are hardly innocent.

 

But the Separatists had normal people/aliens working for them who might have been slaves or needed help from the Jedi. and just as an example the Genocians, were a whole planet of employed or ensalved bug-like aliens. who the Jedi invaded and killed using an army of clone troopers. the individual genocians we'rent evil they were just following the orders of their leaders, same as the Jedi. I don't see how the Jedi were any better than pyschic militia within that set up.

Also its important to note real life republics that elect, via the peoples vote, dangerous and radical people. Such as Hitler in Nazi Germany. Would the Jedi have followed an elected leader's orders if they involved the genocide of other planets?

The only way they could function in a truly unbiased way to restore order and keep peace on a galactic scale would be to follow the will of the force. which they luckily have in the GFFA and we don't here on earth.

I really think you can't tie yourself to any kind of rigid power structure if you actually want to do good. because every empire corrupts and every ideology does also. rigid things are weak. including rigid ideology's. one should endeavour to be like water.

Yoda in ESB was only tied to his own belief in the strength of the force to bring order. that if Luke listend to it, it would save the galaxy. Thats why I like that story, its not about warriors fighting for planets or countries or ideology. its about learning to listen to your own compass and let go of attachment.
And I actually think ESB Yoda was only half right.

If the Jedi's goal was to spread as much 'light' round the glaxy as possible and protect it from 'darkness' then how could they align with any empire, even a republic and expect to be able to achieve those goals?

To spread light you need not take up arms or hire yourself out. You need to show people the way, especially in dark times. Luke and Rey siding with the rebellion and blowing up more storm troopers wont end the darkness, it just perpetuates it. They need to make the shroud of the dark side fall. and that may involve violence but it should never be at the order of superiors. (ala the clone wars) and if your truly enlightened there are no superiors and no subordinates. I dunno, That's my take on it and I realise we all read this stuff differently. but a saviour can't also be paid to do so, and the jedi seemed to only protect the interests of the democracy they lived within. I didn't see them liberating Tatooine, so they we're really defeating the darkness at that point.