The Last Jedi = The end of the Jedi Order

Hmm, I don't remember saying "the light side is the force".
As for the rest, I don't really get your point. I'm not sure what you're actually suggesting.

Well, I'm glad my post wasn't a complete waste of time!

I didn't really get it to be honest.
We're told that anyone can tap into the Force if they devote enough time to it. Well here is a guy that presumably does that but can't actually use the Force. Yeah, didn't get it. However, the one elelment of him I liked and that I believe the Jedi were more like post-PT was his trust in the Force. Everything is as the Force wills it, I believe he says - and this is the Qui Gon-esque lesson the Jedi learn post PT.

But he was showing how they had become tied into this corrupt system. Even Yoda admits in Clones that they have become arrogant. I think Lucas' design was intentional - they're in a literal ivory tower for gawd's sakes!

I agree. It's about acknowledging your dark side and learning how to let go of it.

 

Let's think a bit about what context we might be able to glean from the trailer - besides the obvious, of course.

If Luke's line about it being time for the Jedi to end is indeed connected to that shot of Luke standing at the entrance to that tree-cave, and if the ancient Jedi text we see earlier in the trailer is also kept in that tree-cave (which I think is likely) then it's reasonable to speculate that this "truth" that Luke speaks of may very well be connected to what he found in those early Jedi writings.

In TFA we learn from Han that, as far as the people close to him knew anyway, Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple after Ben turned to the dark side and destroyed the new Jedi academy. This was, as I understand it, after he'd spent time with Ben traveling the galaxy to learn about the Jedi order in preparation for training the new generation of Jedi. Everything then gets wiped out because of Ben, and Luke's response is to go searching for the first Jedi temple. Clearly, he felt that he would find answers there as to what his next step should be - that, or he felt that it would simply be an effective way to close the circle, were the last of the Jedi to live out his last days back where the Order first began.

But given the fact that he's got access to Jedi texts, and that he seems to make this dramatic pronouncement about the end of the Jedi in such close apparent proximity to those texts, I get the impression that they're all linked within the film, probably in the same scene. So the question then becomes, what the hell did he find in those texts that would cause him to believe that the ONLY solid truth that he knows is that the Jedi have to end?

My guess is that the conclusion that Luke's "only truth" stems from something that he learned about the origins of the Jedi Order.

I've no idea what this could be, but I suspect it's the source of the ongoing cycle of violence between the Jedi and the Sith and that its resolution is to be found in what we learned in the Mortis trilogy - that light and darkness can only be held in balance by that third thing, the combination of the two that the "father" represented. Left to their own devices, and without that balancing effect, the light and the dark are constantly at war, thus bringing chaos to the galaxy. Luke saw this conflict at work within his own nephew, and now the galaxy is at war once again partly as a result of that conflict.

Now, after consulting these ancient texts, he is left with the firm conviction that the Jedi have to go. For Luke to come to this conclusion, knowing what he knows and having experienced what he has in turning his father back from the dark side and surviving the Emperor's nearly successful attempts to turn Luke himself to the dark side... that's an incredibly powerful thing indeed.

 

Wasn't TCW series and 2 acts of ROTS about the Jedi learning who the true enemy was and standing against it for the sake of the Republic itself. Even in ATOTC Obi warns Anakin that Palpatine is a manipulator.

I see the points you are trying to make I even agree on many. But given the values shown on display in Star Wars and understanding that Lucas wanted to make movies that taught values "like the old westerns did" I think you have to acknowledge Obi-Wan's initial description makes it clear Jedi are the good guys who protect people and strive for justice in an idyllic kingdom.ark Hamill always thought of Star Wars like King Arthur stories a wizard and Excalibur, with knights. That moving forward means the republic is the idyllic kingdom that fell. Now the PT shows it had more complexity but changing the basic structure of the ideals and what is good and evil (in the context of Lucas' story).

 

That's a really sound line of reasoning. I'm not completely sold on the link to the Mortis trilogy because I don't know what it is. But I buy it. so yeah, if the origins of the Jedi in some way perpetuate the cycle of violence. as in- all dark side energy only exists in relation the the origin of the Jedi temples, or something like that. Then what can we assume Rey and Luke will do for the duration of this trilogy?

Do they need to wipe out Kylo Ren/Snoke or harmonise with them in some way? It seems its a 2 v 2 with a master and apprentice on each side. something is set to go down.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

Yeah, no, yeah you're right about that. but thats what I mean about the changing times.

Kylo Ren is a good sign of this, he's evil right but people still want him redeemed, because hes human. it causes disagreements amongs fans, and its not black and white anymore. I think that is clear and I think thats the point of Luke saying 'The Jedi must end' I think the black and white good/evil of the westerns is being replaced by something more murky.

I like to think of Akira Kurosawa's films in relation to this. Many of his heroes are wanderes doing what the feel is best for the people. Thats how I like my starwars, I don't think kids need to be told that Knights were the goodies. Knights were just well off people who killed for even more well off men. why perpetaute a lie when there are other valid truths.

Thus, Lukes tag line in the trailer

 

I don't think there is going to be an elimination of the Jedi just an elimination of the Jedi as we know it. The Jedi order over the past 50 plus years has had more failure than success. Luke has studied and learned about the original Jedi and what the Jedi had become was not what they were intended to be. Luke is out to get back to what the Jedi were intended. To eliminate the Jedi as they are currently known. The thing is, we don't know what the Jedi were intended to be. It will be fun an interesting if that is what is explored. It would also set things up nicely if Lucasfilm decides to explore the early Jedi in some form after the ST is over.

 

I see your point but in 30 of those years the Jedi came back and ended e Empire. Just saying Jedi ended on a pretty high note. Sure things turned ugly again.

Brought balance to the force, redeemed Vader & ended an Empire.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

Knight was Obi-Wan's word not mine. In context of Star Wars they were nothing like you describe.

 

The Jedi's role isn't to just destroy the Sith though. It is to prevent evil from taking over - in whatever form it comes.
That is what disrupts the balance of the Force - when evil people or groups spread their evil across the galaxy. Maz describes perfectly the many forms this has come in. The one consistent thing among that is the Jedi.

The Jedi destroy this evil and then good and evil is balanced again.
I see no sense moving away from this. Sure, make the journey to becoming a Jedi or creating the perfect order a difficult one. But flipping everything on its head contradicts and diminishes Lucas' story in my view.

 

you see I'd say that they were quite simillar to Knights in the PT. Knights or Samurai, in service to a lord or provice. it just happens theirs was galactic. Darth Vader is evidently based on a samurai Retainer, not the top of the pile but a deadly opponent. I see the Jedi of the PT much like this. it becomes boring to talk in circles but I much prefer the hermetic monk/nomadic heroes of the OT to the Knight/gurdians of the PT. it just doesn't feel like the PT jedi were doing anything unless directed to by the senate.

I'm banking on Luke and Rey making the Jedi into actual Heroes again, Like Luke was in the OT. Obi Wan really was a soildier who got caught up in Anakin's mess, and I feel he represents a standard PT Jedi quite well. I mean even when he knew the cloning on Kamino was odd, he still didn't oppsoe the use of it, or voice his worries. and none of the jedi did really.

I won't keep boring you with how I think the Jedi-Senate link was corrupt but I just totally do. and the less association Luke and Rey have to do with any empire the better for the galaxy as a whole.

 

I think we are talking past each other over a nuance not really at the heart of things. Even if the jedi follow the depiction more of Ronin Samurai mystics if you watch TRJ Luke declares himself a Ronin Samurai mystic like his father before him. This is supposed to make you cheer he isn't falling to the darkside. 30 years later he says that Ronin Samurai mystics need to end. It turns the OT on its head if they reject Jedi.

 

I take your point about samurai Ronin mystics.

Yeah it does flip the OT on its head. I think its supposed to. weather Luke will stick to this path or Rey will bring him back to the Jedi way is yet to be seen. I think it is important however that whatever he found in the original Jedi texts makes him no longer believe the jedi are necessary or even good. And I would assume its got something to do with the idea that the first Jedi order's use of the force somehow created or amplified the darkside. something like that y'know.

 

I like Luke.
I like Yoda.
I like Obi-Wan

Oh wait their deluded fools creating the very evil they are fighting. So glad 40 years of stories were really about a misguided or evil cultists.

Thankfully the last deluded cultist has a different story to tell.

I suppose this is the same company that turned Captain America into a Hydra agent.

Wow a Troll rating Its been awhile.

Um I meant this with no malice. I was simply trying to express why the "end of the Jedi" scares me. Text is a poor medium for humor and good natured sarcasm can read like vitriole. I am sorry.

 

All I'm saying is that there is such a thing as rightous anger. And that the Old Jedi order was flawed and basically wrong. I really don't want them to just revert to Light side=good dark side=bad and being in the middle doesn't exist.
Which was what most Jedi were like in the PT.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2017 ---

Han Luke and Leia were not members of the Jedi Order last time I checked. neither were Jynn or Cassian so your comment is misguided and wrong.

 

nah its not all bad. I mean thats the point of a twist right? you dont see it coming.

You might have said 'I like Obi Wan and Luke and I hate Vader'
But then in ESB vader is revealed to be Lukes father and its a twist, maybe you don't want him to die. and Obi Wan & Yoda are is kinda an old lying guys trying to get luke to kill his own dad. I mean, really? were there no other force sensitive kids he could send? yoda could have guessed it would be conflicting for the kid, having to kill his own dad. and Obi wan could have started the training earlyer if him and Yoda knew he was the only hope of stopping the emperor.

A twist should be difficult to swallow. I think the idea that the Jedi order is flawed from its conception to be unable to defeat the darkside is an interesting twist. and it would get the Series out of an endless cycle, and complete the saga, which after all is all one big story about someone brining balance. Luke and Rey have my blessing in this regard.

 

Why...the Jedi can completely end. SW just needs to make it clear to those fans that the LIGHTSIDE are like Grey Jedi and The DARKSIDE are borderline Sith. It's how they could do it without encountering problems in the story. They ended the Sith(supposedly). Why not end the Jedi(supposedly).

 

If you look at the Mortis trilogy there was balance on that planet in the form of the triumvirate. Father toting the line between Daughter and Brother. For centuries however the its been the Jedi vs. Sith. Dark vs. Light. I do believe Luke is the balance and instead of teaching her to be a Jedi, he's going to teach her balance to eventually replace him. When he says its time for the Jedi to end, I think he means he will not teach her to be a Jedi. So unless she wants to teach herself, she will learn about the balance he has in the Force.

Remember there were original rumors that he accidentally destroyed an entire Star Destroyer and felt he was too powerful and could be used by the forces of good or evil so he walked away. So Rey finds Luke after he walked away thinking his presence was a danger to the galaxy. But she's also unwittingly bringing him back into the battle. One that he doesn't want, but one that he ultimately has the responsibility in which to take part. I think we are going to see the redemption of Luke Skywalker in a way that gives him a redemption story without turning to dark.

 

So this alwyas got me as an interesting quote about Luke Skywalker. and having seen the trailer and discussed on here with people I feel the direction Luke has gone in is very much this. The answer to the question: Who is Luke Skywalker is: He is a whole new entity because he was the first to acknowledge his own dark side- that it was not separe from him. and that's important coz both Vader and Kylo Ren made seperate personas and 'killed' their light side's when they turned to evil. Luke remains Luke both in his moments of temptation and outside of them. hes a complete being always.

I know we've all seen this beofre but it just as weight to the idea that the lines in the teaser for TLJ aren't just because hes sad or broken, hes found a 'third way'

 

The context of our discussion for the post you quoted was about how ending of the Jedi effects the series. The post you quoted was me pointing out how the idea that the Jedi are flawed or secretly evil or deluded changes how the Jedi are perceived in earlier chapters of the saga. Han is one of my favorite characters but my focus was on Jedi.

 

You've given me pause for thought. I'll leave it at that and respond later.

 

I'll leave this here as it all ties in with Luke and the whole "the Jedi must end" nonsense!

Read it. No skimming.


***UPDATED SINCE TLJ TEASER TRAILER***


The original post of the List/Evidence for Plagueis:


Snoke is described as being steeped in Dark Side knowledge. Plagueis was known for having "such a knowledge of the Dark Side".

Snoke is described by his apprentice, Kylo Ren, as “wise”. Which villain in the Star Wars saga was labelled ‘wise”?


Snoke's theme is nigh on identical to that of the Opera Scene in ROTS where we learn about Darth Plagueis.


Snoke literally looks like he has cheated death. His injuries are extensive. The only person we know who has actually cheated death (saved others) is Plagueis. Did he really teach his apprentice everything he knew? Have Sith Lords ever been known to bend the truth? Tell a little lie here and there? Masters of deception, anyone?!


Within the Darth Plagueis novel that was de-canonised, Plagueis talks about having Superweapons that can destroy entire star systems, he talks about ruling from the shadows whilst Sidious is the public face, of how immortality is more important than the power Sidious is after and on the cover appears as a large hologram overlooking Sidious. There are also many more verses in the novel that could fit very nicely with what we know about Snoke. It should also be noted that Plagueis had his apprentice Sidious murder his family as his final trial - something Snoke orders Kylo Ren to do.


Plagueis was originally a Muun. A tall (7ft), pale, skinny alien. That was de-canonised. Like the book that shares many ideas that resemble Snoke's story. And what does Snoke look like - Tall (7ft), pale, skinny and he's an alien.

Here's the weird bit: JJ even considered the possibility of Snoke being a woman. He didn’t want him to be an old and decrepit, like the Emperor. Um…but what did we end up with?


In the original script for ROTS, Lucas had it that Anakin WAS created by the Sith (Palpatine). He discarded it as it was unnecessary. However it shows what his final thoughts were on Anakin's origins. Then he decides to write the ST. He needs a villain. Would Lucas' villain not have been Plagueis? The perfect tie in with HIS beloved PT and a way of directly continuing the Darth Vader chosen one tale? Keep in mind Michael Arndt's recent comments that Lucas' treatments weren't in fact ditched but that much of it remains.


In the comic con conference, JJ tells us that LK was not being honest when he mishears Plagueis as Vegas as he says "LK is messing with you". This shows us that JJ passed the question over hoping LK would come up with a good cover story. But LK messed it up. Daisy Ridley is also shushed by Abrams as she begins to say "Is that S...". Whatever happened there, it got awkward and is a point for Plagueis IMO. The question from comic con was specifically about whether Plagueis would be mentioned in Episode VII and about the staff - NOT if Darth Plagueis will be in the ST, like many people have misinterpreted.



Kylo suggests to Hux that Snoke considered a clone army - something that once had direct implications with the Sith and their plan to take over. A nod to Plagueis' former role. He's minted and funded the clone army - more on this later.



Where did Snoke acquire his extensive Dark Side knowledge? If anyone can get this knowledge what is the point in the Jedi and Sith? Why did they have a monopoly on the Force? Why is so much made of knowledge being passed down within both orders if Snoke can just learn it himself? This means to me that Snoke was a Sith. But the only Sith who could've survived and reemerged is Plagueis.

During Rey’s vision sequence in TFA, we can clearly hear the voice of Palpatine saying “any Jedi!” This carefully selected piece of audio was lifted from a scene form ROTS where Palpatine is talking to Anakin about saving Padme from death. Once again, this is a nod to Plagueis and the power he possessed to save people from dying. Why use this line? Why reference the PT when apparently “Disney are distancing themselves from the PT” as many deluded fans claim?


It was confirmed that there were NO Sith in TFA. Again, this resulted in fans claiming “Snoke can’t be Plagueis!” Nonsense. After cheating death, Plagueis would have abandoned the Sith order (Maul, Rebels anyone?!).


Sidious and Vader were the only two Sith remaining. Once Vader killed Sidious, the Sith were destroyed and balance was restored. Plagueis’ existence does not interfere in the prophecy.



Star Wars Rebels

( & enter George Lucas. Plagueis’ creator.)


So, Uncle George decides to bring back Darth Maul in TCW, after we watched him get sliced in half in TPM. George stated that he died in TPM at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi. He looked pretty dead to me too. Anyway, we now see Mr Maul pop up in ‘Rebels’ as ‘Old Master’. Mr Maul has made it clear that he despises the Sith and has nothing to do with the order any more. Hmmm, what’s this? A former Sith Lord, who has cheated death, abandoned the order, has been in the shadows for years, plotting his revenge on all of his enemies. What on earth could this be eluding to? Good work Mr Filoni, I see what you did there! Oh and one more thing...Why is Maul on the back cover of the Plagueis novel. Coincidental, isnt it…?



I’ll throw a quote in here….



Andy Serkis: “I have no idea who he is!”

Interesting comments Andrew. Isn’t Snoke just Snoke? If he was just an original character, why is there a mystery surrounding his identity? But “He’s a newly introduced character!” I hear you cry. Well Andrew, we’ve never actually been introduced to Darth Plagueis before. We’ve only ever heard of him. So, technically Snoke IS a new character. He just used to go by a different name when he was a Sith Lord.



The List/Evidence against Plagueis = Snoke.


Supreme Leader Snoke, despite being horrifically damaged, is cheating death and all the other similarities he shares with Plagueis, as stated above, might just be a random new bad guy they’ve decided to introduce. Disney and some of the best storytellers and producers on the planet decided that this would be the way to go.


Insert Funny GIF here




******UPDATED******


We have now been told by MSW that Snoke is dressed in gold and is all about the money! He's got a "palace" on his ridiculously huge Star Destroyer. He's minted and he flaunts it. Sounds like they've been taken elements from the Plagueis novel...again! #moneybagsdemask



My theory:


I've always been a believer that the ST is about the rise of a new Jedi order, which will result in the demise of the Skywalker's. As was heavily implied in ROTS, and as Ian McDiarmid eluded to at SWCO, Anakin was created by Plagueis. The Skywalker's are tainted by the Dark Side and their very existence is due to the all powerful former Sith Lord, Darth Plagueis.


The Skywalker's are cursed. The Skywalker bloodline is tainted and needs to end. Leia will die. Kylo will be redeemed by saving Rey in ep9 and die in the process. Luke will eventually become one with the force. Rey will be the one who carries on and leads the new Jedi Order as she IS NOT a Skywalker. Maz confirmed this in TFA with the line: "Whoever you're waiting for, they're not coming back".


This brings us to The Last Jedi teaser trailer:


Luke: "I know one truth. The Jedi must end". I very much doubt that dialogue is taken from the same scene. However, if it is, it has been cut differently. The way he says "Jedi" sounds way off to the way rest of the sentence is spoken. Could it possibly go like this: " I know one truth. The Skywalker bond with the Jedi, must end..."


There so much more...

Even the description of 'Snoke's' new guards seem to be based on Plagueis' Sun Guards.

Snoke seeing the rise and fall of the Empire.

The fact that Snoke seems to easily acquire the remnants of the Empire for his own First Order so quickly, just doesn't add up, unless his identity is known to the last of the Imperial elite. Then he's in pole position.

The fact that he had an apprentice before Kylo Ren.

Kylo now uses a red lightsaber, just like a Sith? If this guy is all new, and nothing to do with the Sith, why are his methods identical to the Sith?

Snoke is former Sith Lord Darth Plagueis. And this is HIS NEW ORDER.

Thoughts?


#plagueisconfirmed

 

What if Yoda's Force ghost appears on Anch-To for a heart-to-heart chat with Luke to convince him not abandon the Jedi?

If Luke hasn't got over losing all his students (he may blame the Jedi for this), he won't want to train Rey. But Yoda may convince him that this girl is the only hope of turning Ben back to the Light.