The Last Jedi = The end of the Jedi Order

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this is mentioned elsewhere.
People are focusing on the line" end of the jedi,"
What is a Jedi?
A title more than anything else.
A title to a sect of people who use the light side of the force.
Jedi doesn't mean the lightside or the force itself.
Much like the POPE is a title to the Catholicism.
If the Catholics said, it's time for the POPE to end, that would mean the religion would live on, there would just be no more with that title.

I am more inclined to believe Luke has learned something no other Jedi has learned before and knows that a simple title isn't what makes one good or bad.

 

a lot of people seem to think that grey/gray is the direction that Luke may be going with respect to his line "the Jedi must end" - with reasoning being that light vs dark is in a constant cycle as seen over the two trilogies. one problem i have with this is that grey/gray leaves just as much chance for someone to fall. each individual we have witnessed over the various mediums (comics/novels/cartoons/movies) have given us examples of a fallen Jedi, a rogue, a Sith-turned-Jedi, and all the inbetween, etc. there is absolutely no chance that ill believe someone whom dabbles in both light and dark will have complete control over both, especially if circumstances come into play (like most stories, they rely on tropes and what not - SW is a great example of this).
SO what happens when this 'grey/gray Luke' runs into an issue, such as a villain taking a hostage and threatening to kill them? swap out Luke for a trained Rey, who is apparently 'grey/gray' and you still fall into the same circumstances that will cause a shift from 'grey' to light or dark. ive always found the grey concept interesting, especially in the KOTOR games (Jolee - id also make my character 'grey' in force attunement). but they are almost always going between light and dark at will. the point is, i dont see how it ends the cycle. you try and teach someone 'control' similar to how the PT and OT Jedi would teach control over emotions, etc to not full or be seduced to the dark side. the dark side is always calling, whether you can 'control it' still only applies to that individual and more so in certain moments. yet these Light-siders still fell. and these potential Grey-siders will also still run that same chance of falling. the point is that the cycle may only halt for some time (like seen in TPM and the gap between ROTJ-TFA). i feel like this is going to open a big can of worms that may or may not break how the Force works. remember when midichlorians happened? giving too much about how the Force works just doesnt seem to go over well with the fan base. i personally didnt have an issue with midichlorians, but i would absolutely have an issue with giving the Force an 'ideal' way to be, when it comes to the gifted people blessed with a natural affiliation to the Force, which, as the canon states, runs through everyone and everything, with some being naturally more attuned, like our Skywalker family.

all this operates under the assumption that this is the way its going to pan out. theres many possibilities, of course, such as Luke being told to wake up from his idealistic crazy talk and to believe in the Jedi and the Light side again, or Rey being a Chosen One, or any other plausible thing can happen with what we know. just commenting on the thoughts being laid out atm in the thread.

 

Well if you are prepared to separate from Lucas sure.

But if you view the balance of the force like an ecosystem (like I was suggesting) light is analogous to acting in the best interest others, through protection, serving others and so on. Its not a scale to balance its a wheel. The light keeps it spinning. The dark spins it out of control. It destroys economies, ecosystems, ends life and so on.

In that system it is difficult to say that what is supposed to represent doing good some how creates evil and should assume responsibility for that creation.

People seem to want to theorize more about strange esoteric powers of the force than simply looking at what Lucas has made "using the force" analogous to.

Avoiding greed as a motive and trying to share doesn't create an evil elsewhere unless by sharing you have created something someone else wants to take. But that is hardly something that the light side should take credit for.

 

I'd just like to add...



After Plagueis was thought to be dead, the Sith continued with the rule of two - with Sidious and Vader. However, Snoke, formerly known as Darth Plagueis, survived the attempted murder by Sidious, cheated death, abandoned the Sith, and began the First Order under his true identity - Snoke.

It requires little exposition on screen, and his backstory is one most hardcore fans are aware of. To the causal fan, Snoke is just the Emperors former master. Bigger and badder.

He's fecking hardcore, basically. Cheating death, getting one over on the "over confidence" of Sidious, and pulling the strings from the very start.

The fact that Plagueis created Anakin - something that Ian McDiarmid once again eluded to at this years SWOC, means for me, that the ST is about how the Skywalker's are tainted by the darkside and they are effectively cursed by their creator. Luke WILL train Rey to take over the next generation of Jedi. Luke, Leia and Kylo/Ben (Kylo/Ben will be redeemed by sacrificing himself and saving Rey) will all die by the end of Ep9 afer destroying their creator. The new Jedi, without the Skywalker bloodline, will prevail......and Disney can create shed loads more saga films!

ITG out.

 

Overall I just really just don't want, "The Jedi must end." to be a simple statement. I don't want Luke to just simply want nobody to learn to become a Jedi because sometimes Jedi turn bad.

According to Lucas, Anakin is the chosen one and he brings balance to the force by destroying the Emperor and Himself, eliminating the Sith. This leaves just Luke, a Jedi, using the light side of the force which again according to Lucas is the most in balance.

However, even though the Sith were eliminated Anakin did not eliminate all dark side users (Snoke: A powerful dark side user who saw the rise and fall of the empire). If there was still a very powerful dark side user alive then balance was never achieved by Anakin. Obviously these changes are not what Lucas originally intended because they didn't use any of his ideas for TFA and maybe that's part of why he never seemed very happy with TFA. However, it does make me think Disney is rethinking the chosen one and what it means to bring balance to the force.

 

Down with the Jedi. I will like Luke a 100% more if this is really his intention. Luke was always rather dull, but this new Luke is awesome!

 

I agree that Lucas said Anakin was the chosen one but what if this new story arc illustrates that there was more to the prophecy than what we've heard before. That perhaps, for example, Anakin was only supposed to bring an end to the Sith (and thus their philosophy)? It's clear that Snoke has dealings in the Dark Side, but what's hinted at in his philosophy (by how he wants to train Kylo and how there are multiple Ren) seems to be vastly different than that of the Sith.

Since there will always be Force Users, maybe what causes imbalance is the Philosophy of use... I don't know for sure I'm still trying to sort this out myself. I think you have a valid point in noting that Snoke was around while the Empire was going, shouldn't his presence have also have caused imbalance? Shouldn't the presence of all the other Force Sensitive creatures cause an imbalance? All great questions that need to be answered.

 

It's almost like the word 'Order' is the missing piece.
"It's time for the Jedi Order... To end."
Because the order/methods of the Jedi are conflicted, and Luke would rather have a free-thinking Jedi in place of the old Jedi if he and Rey are going to take on the evil villains. Just like Bruce Lee saw the ways of the various martial art styles being too fixed and organized.

"Voidness is that which stand in the middle between this and that. The void is all-inclusive, having no opposite."

"One can function freely and totally if he is 'beyond system'."

 

Yes you are right Ammianus: the original Luke was only interesting in the short moments when he faced emotional conflict. The rest of the time he was boring, dull and one-dimensional. The Last Jedi Luke is a Luke I actually like. A real human character with real human emotions is always so much more interesting. The Jedi represent an idiotic institution: it is time for something new, something more realistically human.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2017 ---

Yes, the paradigm doesn't work and needs to change. I'm going to watch that Order 66 scene and the Geonosis Arena Battle again: nothing is more fun than seeing these stupid Jedi die.

 

I may be mistaken, but the actual Jedi Order kind of ended the moment Order 66 was triggered. Yes, there were a few stragglers who escaped and hid on remote worlds, but the "Jedi Order" as it was, ceased to be after Episode III.

 

Haha yes, very true. The Jedi Code then, or the Jedi System, Law, Fan Club, whatever it is needs to end.

 

We are defined by our actions. Regardless of whether a person feels some negative stuff, it is how they act that counts. And so that is what the Jedi are about. Even Yoda admitted he had a dark side. Everyone does. But when you act on it - that is when you abandon the ways of the Jedi. The Jedi don't act in their dark side, they don't act irrationally - which is what one is doing when one acts emotionally. The whole point Lucas was making with Luke was that when he threw down his saber, he was for the first time acting rationally.

And so to suggest the Jedi must end and a new order be out in its place, you have to answer what exactly this new group will do. Are we seriously suggesting that they will act in emotional ways? They will use the dark side a little bit? You don't stop evil from taking over if you add to it - a lesson the PT Jedi already learned!

The fact is, evil will always rise. And in the gffa, those that wield the dark side will always seek to take over. This is why the Jedi must exist and that no amount of light that they empower will ever be a problem. The problem is when they allow evil to take over and disrupt the balance.

So again, I don't buy the idea that Luke will be ending the Jedi for good. As the Skywalker family comes to an end, so will the Jedi as we know it. But from the ashes a new order will rise, led by Rey...

 

Bumming hard here guys!

Jedi rule!

 

TLJ is the second film in the trilogy common sense dictates that the Jedi will live on in some form. I'd like to see the grey Jedi concept developed. In the Rebels tv show Ahsoka is not a Jedi so what is she? I think Rey will continue on as the new Jedi, and a new order will rise. It looks like her gloved hand reading the Journal.

 

No it doesn't. The series could move forward with something other then Jedi. Instead of becoming a Jedi and carrying on that line, Rey could be the first of something new. Just how the Sith were replaced by Knights of Ren.

Maybe the story will jump forward 100 years and there will be many orders all called the Knights of X.......

 

I am not sure the Sith were replaced by the Knights of Ren. Snoke is obviously Ren's superior, but Snoke specifically refers to Ren as the leader of the knights. Snoke will be a Sith, it seems pretty obvious and that is what Ren wants to be... As it stand I think of the Knights of Ren as the minor league of dark side users. Snoke is more powerful given Ren is asking him to complete his training. It will be interesting to see.

The last Jedi is very intersting name. I think what we are going to see is the ending of the orthodoxy of the Jedi code. I believe that Rey will be trained much differently than Luke tried to train Ben Solo. I suggest that Solo was trained in the old Jedi orthodoxy as espoused by Kenobi and Yoda. I think what you will see is an expansion of what it means to be a Jedi now. In other words, the only reason a powerful Jedi does not use force lightning is because of orthodoxy, not because they cannot. In the Revenge of the Sith book, Yoda seems to suggest that Palpatine was more powerful because the Sith had spent 1000 years exploring new ways to use the force while in hiding. The Jedi had spent 1000 years becoming rigid, dogmatic and inflexible in their usage of the force. That is why Yoda could not defeat Palpatine.

The Jedi orthodoxy sees light and dark as a dichotomy but I think Luke now sees it as a duality. We all have capacity for good and evil, it is what you choose to do with the force that ultimately determines if you are a Jedi or a Sith. So with this outlook, a Jedi can use the force in aggressive ways if it is used to help to defeat evil. It is like when Luke did a force choke on the guards at Jaba's palace. It was an aggressive force technique that a Jedi would not use because of dogma. Jedi are warrior monks that adhere to a specific code. That code limits their ability to resist power and other temptations. Those limits also allow for evil to rise in the form of dark side users.

 

Well I haven't seen any pics or shots with Luke with a gloved hand and there are several with Rey. Knights of X could be a new form of Jedi.

 

Spoiler: massive spoiler

My bet is these knights will reform on the planet Ni and take their name from it.

 

People have quoted the journal of the whills snippet, and there quite right. More important is the last line I think. Through REFINED Jedi sight. Refined being the key word, Luke and Rey will deal with thus I hope.