The Last Jedi = The end of the Jedi Order

I buy it yeah. But I don't think Snoke will 'be Plagueis' I don't think that name will ever get used, as a reveal like that would mean nothing to casual fans. I think they cannabalized the EU to make a streamline series of films. Your influences of plagues on Snoke I think are accurate but he no more 'is' Plagueis than kylo ren 'is' Jacen solo (I don't know the old expanded universe well I hope you know which solo kid I'm talking about)

So I think Snoke is an incarnation of Plaugues but I don't think they will ever call him
That on screen

 

As Plagueis/Snoke once said: "We shall see....we shall see....."

 

WOW

Impressive your devotion to the DP theory is impressive. That was pretty thorough.

I no longer think its likely but that was a fun trip.

 

Maybe "the awakening" that Snoke referenced was Luke coming to an internal realization that to bring balance, there could be no Jedi or Sith, but a true mix of both and that "the chosen one" was not Anakin or Luke, but another. The questions of "Who are you?" and "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it?" point towards both Luke and Rey. Maybe even toward Kylo. Those that are force sensitive have felt his awakening. Could it be possible that like Anakin, Rey is a child of the force? Perhaps Luke's training of Rey is not in the way of the Jedi, but what he has discovered through his own awakening...this middle ground. And if he truly believes it, wouldn't he want to see the Jedi end? Not because he has turned to the dark side, but because this is how balance will be restored to the force.

 

Snoke is his own character, he hasn't gone by the name Plagueis for a long time. Not since his last apprentice before Kylo at least, that one didn't work out so well, he even admits it himself (actual canon).

 

Planting the seeds for one thing giving something else/different is a common storytelling technique.

Remember when Obi-wan said "He (Vader) betrayed and murdered your father" - by your "storytelling logic" thats bad storytelling since the audience is being told at least part of Lukes motivation will be revenge and yet when he comes face to face with Vader......we don't get that. Why plant the seeds for a story of a son killing his fathers killer only to find out the villain IS his father?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 17, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 17, 2017 ---

There is a difference.

The Sith were THOUGHT to be extinct but there still Sith out there passing on the teaching. Luke IS the last Jedi, if he doesn't train Rey and turn her into a Jedi......the teaching and order dies out.

I think were that line takes place in the movie will greatly impact the importance of it and how it plays into the story. If thats how Luke and Rey's first conversation ends, then the movie will most likely show how Luke is changing his mind and now training a new Jedi. If that line is placed in the 3rd act (maybe before Rey leaves to help her friends or something), I think its much more likely we'll actually see an end to the Jedi Order in this trilogy.

 

But it made sense within the context of history. Obi-wan knew Luke for years and telling him the truth about his father's fate when Luke was 19 would have been devastating to him -at that point he was still a child. Besides, Obi-wan wanted Luke to basically kill Vader, as he thought that Anakin was completely lost. Luke would have never decided to kill his father - he wasn't a person like that and Obi-wan knew that well. There is so much more to that wist than pure shock value.

 

You're talking in universe. The comment was talking from a storytelling stand point and claimed that subverting expectations was bad storytelling. I provided an example of subverting expectations being great storytelling (until the PT anyway)

And a 19 year old is not a child.

 

Hi to ALL....

This thread is a GOOD one.I like it....This NEW trilogy will change a lot the things we know right now about SW.The jedi.....For me it will change.Is going to be a NEW generation with NEW characters.We are going to "let go" the one we know from the OT BUT SLOWLY.Han Solo is gone and we are going to miss him.Who will be the next one?This can a topic for another thread.I believe that Luke IS The Last Jedi.Han Solo mention..."He was training students for a NEW generation of Jedi(This is very clear)BUT a student get against him and destroy it "ALL".What student was this?....Is Benicio del Toro character.There is no information about what is his character and HE NEVER show up in Orlando.For me this student is Snoke(Benicio del Toro)and Leia told Han "It was Snoke who seduce Ben to the dark side".


I think Snoke was a Jedi first and he became evil.Remember to have balance there must be GOOD and BAD....Light and dark.When LST mention without the jedi there will no balance is because Snoke is presence and we need jedi.Is like Luke don't want to be a jedi no more because what happen to him and his students.....



Han said it...."He went away and he is looking for the last temple of the jedi". MAYBE looking for answer and knowledge.



Years had pass and the jedi order will be change by Luke.Daisy(Rey) will be the first NEW jedi of this NEW generation of jedi.Is my thinking.Ben was going to be a jedi BUT something happen.Is a mystery right?.....
In resumen....I believe the jedi order will die BUT the jedi NO.We are going to see the creation of the NEW generation of jedi with Luke training Rey.I believe that Luke don't want to be a jedi no more BUT Rey is the answer and the FORCE bring Rey(Rey is the NEW chosen One for me)to Luke....The answer he was looking for is Rey.He said to Rey....Is time to the jedi to end.He was upset....Luke will see ghost from our friends(jedi friends that had "gone") to change his mind and he will be on track again....This will be AMAZING!!!


See that tree....Is saying with open arms "Come to me".....

My friends....

 

Funny how that tree and the Falcon aren't in the overhead drone pan shot of the Ahch-To island in the teaser....

 

I'm seeing it right now

 

Rey has o be a Solo right?

 

I never said the Jedi were "Evil". Their not .Just flawed.

 

Again context prior to your comment was about changes to the Jedi which included a spectrum of what they might be changing them into. My response to you directly was hoping to clarify.

 

The Jedi and Sith create a loop, you can't have one without the other. This is a flawed system and eventually led to the downfall of the Jedi. Luke was taught the ways of the force by two Jedi Masters who knew only this flawed system and so when he set up his own Jedi Academy, training people to use the light side of the force he inadvertently gave power to darkness. I believe that when Luke says, "Its time for the Jedi to end" he is seeking to end that cycle.

This may be a very bold prediction but here it goes.

• There have been a lot of rumors about how everything started with two children (boy and a girl) who develop strange powers while standing near a mysterious tree. The boy falls to the Dark Side while the girl becomes the founder of the Jedi order. Starting a never-ending cycle of light battling darkness and darkness battling the light.
• Think of the force like a See-Saw, so if you use the force it for good you bring it out of balance, if you use it for bad you bring it out of balance, this is because you are interrupting the natural flow of the force. The force is kind of like Nature, if we have had a dry spell we might get a few very rainy few days because nature is trying to balance itself out. So when you use the force for good, you might accomplish good things and help people but you are bringing things out of balance and creating a swing towards darkness as the force seeks to balance itself.
• My prediction is Luke will seek to remove peoples ability to manipulate the force (including himself, galaxy wide, nobody can manipulate the force for their own purposes anymore) and finally end the cycle and return balance.

 

I think there are two problems with this.

That isn't Lucas' view of balance. The light in his view most in balance because it lived in the most harmony, it acknowledges symbiosis of people, it shares, it seeks justice, it seeks the best for the most possible.

Imbalance- the dark side was based on selfiness, hurt who you need to too meet your needs, take whatever you can, amass power, its greed based, it views people as expendable resources, it has no regard for creating sustainable systems. It destroys ecosystems for its goals, it monopolizes economies, it destabilizes groups to manipulate.

In that view light cannot create imbalance.

Now they own the company so they are free to deviate from the founders ideas but this is fundamental and I think it is safe to say it concerns some fans.

Worse this plays out practically by discouraging doing good things, life affirming things for others.

 

I think Episode 8 will start with a disillusioned Luke who is giving his Jedi ways and that will "revived" by Rey.

Maybe Luke will decide not to give up on Ben, like Padme did on Anakin... and himself on his own father before.

The last sentence from the trailer is probably one of the first from Episode 8.

 

I believe Luke thinks that training "Jedi" to follow only the light, causes the Force to create a Dark. He will train Rey to use the entire Force so she remain balanced.

 

That's exactly how I'm seeing it, assuming the line makes it into the film. Let's all keep in mind that so far they've shown a willingness to use footage in the trailers that will eventually be discarded (same goes for dialogue).

Assuming the line is used, it is used VERY early on. Luke asks Rey, "Who are you?" A conversation follows. (now watch the trailer again) and Luke attempts to dismiss Rey by saying "I know only one truth... it's time for the Jedi to end."

This reminds me of Empire and Yoda arguing with Ben that Luke was too old to begin the training. She is going to have to convince Luke to end his exile, to train her (either in the old ways of the Jedi or in the REALLY OLD WAYS of the Jedi) and get back into the fight. I think it's pretty obvious he does so, or else Episode VIII is gonna be one short film!

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2017 ---

I get where you are coming from, but you are basing this on what, 2 minutes of footage that could be, for all we know, meant to purposely misdirect?

As for Lucas's intentions, those changed over the years. Someone above mentioned the fact that Luke was supposed to avenge his father, but then it changed to save his father when the story went from one movie to a set of trilogies (Lucas never EVER planned on making more than one film prior to the release in 1977 of what would become Episode IV).

So what he intended changed for the times and for necessity. This isn't religion, it's storytelling. Yes, they are telling the story in the same universe AND they should follow the rules set by the creator, but they are free to grow the story, change things as needed in order to tell the best story they possibly can.

I think we are getting too caught up in all of this. Speculation is certainly fun, but with a few lines of dialogue and a few minutes of footage to go by, we really can't be sure of what any of this means.

 

You are making statements of what light and dark seek to accomplish and how they seek to do it. However, both of these ways of using the force are manipulating the force to accomplish what the user wishes. You have to ask, is the force inherently benevolent, malevolent of neutral? Even though Lucas wanted the force to be benevolent it seems that they are going in the direction of presenting the force as neutral and If that is the case then any manipulation of the force at all would bring it out of balance.

Also, I don't think this line of thought discourages doing good but forces the person to really think about how they are accomplishing that good. I think this is a really interesting concept for Star Wars considering many characters have done what they think is right and made sacrifices for the greater good, Anakin began his fall to the dark side to protect someone he loved and bring peace to the galaxy, Kylo thinks he is sacrificing for what is right (although we don't know the full extent of this yet)