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The One Thing You Didn't Like in TLJ (For TLJ Lovers)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jayson, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Clone Commander

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    The ending was weird, but it was still meaningful. The film also carries over similar/the same ideas from the OT. I would have appreciated more creativity from the film by being more original.
     
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  2. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    That is honestly the first time I've heard that opinion.

    Interesting.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  3. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    Actually that was why our son didn't like the movie. He said it was unoriginal and didn't explore anything new just the same old good vs evil.
     
  4. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    I mean...yeah, I supose if that's what needs to change to be considered original, then it wasn't original.

    I think that's an odd pick to guage by; like saying a Bond film where Bond refuses to do his job, almost becomes a villain, and was shot in a Kubrick style all artsy, was unoriginal because of all the spy stuff.

    *shrug*
    Huh.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I mean, by that definition, very few movies are ever original.
    Good vs Evil IS Star Wars. It's kind of baked into the mythos of it. I don't know if you can have "Star Wars" without it.

    I mean, you could but it would have to be a very small narrative
     
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  6. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Clone Commander

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    It's more of a seldom opinion, but it's probably more accurate to the film. There are some original moments in the film like when Kylo order the First Order to blast down Luke on Crait. But there's a lot of parallels or themes from previous SW films in TLJ. It has nothing to do with the common TFA was too unoriginal/TLJ was too deviant or risky argument.

    For instance, (while I can't embed the video) this video- The Last Jedi: Similarities and Parallels to other Star Wars Media by REX on YouTube highlights similar ideas from previous SW films, notably ESB and ROTJ.

    One thing that I'm surprised that people haven't caught on to is how much of an impact that ESB probably had on the film. Almost whenever a sequel is mentioned, especially a good sequel, people instinctively talk about the TESB. It was even used in How to Train Your Dragon 2 by Dean DuBlois, who was inspired by the film to develop the characters and story at least. Few people have considered that the TLJ film might have taken heavy inspiration from ESB, even if it's not beat-for-beat. There was even a individual who worked in ESB, an assistant of the art department or the modeling part of the film, I vaguely believe, who worked or helped in TLJ.

    TLJ is like a fun house mirror of the OT ANH, ESB and ROTJ with some added bits and insight thrown in from Rian Johnson. That doesn't make it a bad film and it's insightful, but perhaps less original.

    I think that Rian said recently that he respected the OT by inverting it, which shows in the film. The throne room scene with Snoke is a what if scenario of the ROTJ throne room.
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Personally for me TLJ was unoriginal because it had to many similar beats to TESB and ROTJ. It was okay with TFA. But for the second installment I expected something more brave. Kinda like what TESB did after ANH.

    Just my two cents to the topic which is going on right now.
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Oooooh.
    Lol.

    You were talking about the chiastic narrative.
    Yeah, no. I'm well versed on that.
    I wrote an article on TLJ's.
    https://sites.google.com/site/thoughtsonfilmwithjayson/home/articles/the-symmetry-of-the-last-jedi

    And I've made maps of the chiastic relationships (posted around here).
    Like this one: https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....-in-the-history-of-chiastic-literature.56268/


    If that's what folks mean by unoriginal, *shrug*...eh.
    I just disagree.

    Show me another film which employs a 4 story nested chiastic structure (meaning, contains a chiastic response to 4 other stories which are themselves formed on a chiastic narrative) wrapped into a Christmas Carol-like self-mirroring* allegorical fairy tale narrative

    *TLJ self-mirrors in similar fashion that ESB and AOTC do...because it's the second film of the trilogy

    That, to me, is on the extreme end of original. I know of no other story in history which has done this.
    The Iliad doesn't, and neither do the Christian Bible, the Judaic Tanakh, or the Islamic Qur'an.
    The first three of these being some of the most famous and well known large-scale chiastic narrative examples in literary history.

    For everyone who doesn't like the chiastic form...well...the final main saga film is almost here and that will conclude the necessity being inherently buried into the story to be a chiastic narrative form, and so from that point on, Star Wars has no obligation what-so-ever to how its narratives are structured.

    The side films have already been deviating; most notably R1 (which, is part of the reason I find it boring).

    So I suppose I can only say, "Bummer".
    For someone like myself, I'm loving the hell out of the chiastic exhibition. It's breaking literary records all over the place and it's massively exciting!

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Attuned

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    Recently rewatched TLJ and I still love it. One tweak I would have made is to have Luke actually be presenf, not a Force Projection. Kylo could have slayed him, making his murders his father, dark side master, and uncle/Jedi Master.
     
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  10. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I think this would have made Kylo Ren irredeemable. Luke did something quite clever- he not just saved the Resistance but saved Kylo Ren from darkness. Kylo wants to eradicate the light within him, so he has to kill his past. By the "suicide" of Luke, Kylo can't never achieve this.
     
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  11. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Attuned

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    I respect your view, however, Anakin did worse. He killed younglings and then Force Choked his wife, leading to her death. The atrocities Vader commited during the Jedi Purge would have made a strong argument that he is irredeemable, and yet he was redeemed.
     
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  12. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebelscum

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    Worse in the emotionally abstract but far less personal to the viewer.

    A significant percentage will never forgive him for killing Han no matter what else he does but are fine with or even celebrate redemption for a space Hitler level character.
     
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  13. JohnMarston1911

    JohnMarston1911 Rebelscum

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    I feel like I'm the only person who liked the Canto Bight scenes. I thought DJ was a cool character we got introduced to as well.

    And I didn't even like TLJ.
     
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  14. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    I didn't dislike DJ.
     
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  15. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    I'm looking foreward to your writings on Ep. IX
    There are 3 questions though:
    1) what if we get an exciting, satisfying last Saga movie, that refuses to fit into the chiastic structure.
    2) What if we get a really boring, unoriginal movie that doesn't fit into the chiastic structure.
    3) What if it fits and is almost universally considered bad.

    I liked it too, and to me it wasn't meaningless, but did show how good intentions just fail.
     
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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    1 & 2 are more what I expect actually.
    TLJ wrapped up everything chiastically obligated for the series by responding to TPM, AOTC, ESB, and ROTJ in one film.

    This surprised me originally, but I came to see it as a brilliant move, because IX is now free to do what it wants.

    So it will either do a round-robin of theme responses, respond to the holistic Star Wars theme, or not respond at all.

    Out of those three, I more expect a holistic theme response with little nods here and there.

    By holistic I mean dark vs. light, and the "doomed to repeat the 'sins of our fathers/predecessors'" themes as a whole concept.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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