The "treatment of Luke"

We're talking about instant gratification in a form dictated by some of the fans.

There was fun. Luke tossed the saber aside. Chewie kicked his door down. He riffed with "Rey from nowhere". And so on.

Some fans just didn't have fun not seeing what they wanted to see.

Some fans.

It's only been four and a half years since the end of the saga. Including a pandemic. And Luke's demeanor in the opening scenes of TLJ has got absolutely zero to do with Jenkins Rogue Squadron not being developed (and which LFL didn't want to announce in the first place). Maybe you're talking about the reunion of the OT heroes that we supposedly all craved and were due. Clearly the ST was the end of the road for those characters, regardless of what happened in them. So that was always a dead end. I fail to see any logic in any instant gratification of that not universally held desire ensuring that further movies NOT featuring them would be made and more, in quick order, being enthusiastically received and sought by the fans.

Critics have blamed the rushed development of TFA (roughly/generously estimated about three years) for the alleged "failure" of the trilogy or the franchise. So the math that should prompt me to lament only five Star Wars films being rushed in the past nine years escapes me. It's also worth noting that there are probably more people in my phonebook than there are people who genuinely measure Star War's worth by its success or otherwise in pumping out movies more frequently than they have in the past nine years.

 

Well, yeah. By design, yes. The characterization of spirit Luke in TROS is deliberately different in countenance than the Luke we were presented with at the start of TLJ. He needs to be. He’s on the other side of his redemption arc. He’s supportive and understanding and comforting in a way he most definitely was not beforehand.

He’s a fully willing mentor now instead of a reluctant tutor. It’s pivotal to the character that the performance be modulated to reflect that and Hamill equips himself appropriately.

 

His demeanor is not that different though.

That's his motivation. But the way he speaks to Rey really isn't all that different to when they first met.

 

Oh boy. We’re not going to squabble about words and their definitions again, right? Please no.

Is his manner/conduct/behavior/attitude towards Rey noticeably different in TROS? In my observation, 100% yes. He’s way more approachable, sensitive, and engaging and that (I believe) is the point.

That’s the guy who heard Yoda’s counsel. That’s the guy who showed up (sort of) for his sister. That’s who he really was under that jaded veneer.

Wow, that’s fascinating. Because, honestly, it’s night and day to me. They’re 180 degrees apart for me and, narratologically, need to be. It’s meant to be transformative. If there’s no change, then what’s the point?

 

I never said no change.

 

So, the way he speaks to her did change or didn't change? I'm confused.

 

THAT was...fun?!?? Yeah, it was a really 'fun' plot twist after the build-up ending to TFA. (eyeroll)

You act like giving the audience what they want is a BAD thing. A film franchise -- by its very definition -- means giving an audience MORE of what they've enjoyed from a past film or films. Of course, filmmakers are allowed to subvert expectations. But, as TLJ proved, it's a financially risky proposition.

ONLY four and a half years? That's your response? FYI, Marvel has released TEN films in that time frame.

But Lucasfilm's inactivity has all been about internal development snafuses. Good to know it has had 'absolutely zero' to do with fans feeling abused by the direction TLJ and TROS went after TFA.

The finale of Season 2 of the Mandalorian should've told you something. Do you want to bet me that there won't someday in the future be a TV series or feature film featuring Luke Skywalker? @Jayson said as much earlier in this thread.

 

Not very much.

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Yes. Perhaps being preoccupied with not getting the instant gratification you were anticipating made you miss the spirit of the scene. Like people were frustrated when Luke goes to find a jedi master and is sidetracked by a mischievous green Muppet.

George Lucas once said if he was dictated to by what the fans want, the rebels would not lose the only battle right at the start of the movie. Luke wouldn't be separated from Leia, R2 wouldn't have been split up from 3PO, Han wouldn't be frozen , and Luke wouldn't lose his hand or learn that Vader was his father in Empire.

Any good ones? I don't really care, to be honest. And I care less about comparing Star Wars with Marvel. But I don't recollect anything having as big an impact since TROS and Endgame came out.

Which is set 25 years before the sequel trilogy. Conjuring up newly knighted Luke in his youthful prime,before he's lived a whole other lifetime of consequence, and fans responding to it favourably, does not invalidate not giving people that in a movie set decades later.

The engineering f youthful avatars of the OT heroes is stil a polarising issue among the fandom, incidentally. So it's silly to talk as if a consensus has tacitly approved future movies done in this fashion. Or the d+ series leaning on it more than they have.

 

Let's 'dive into' this 'fun' scene. TFA ended with a triumphant John Williams score and an arial shot of Rey offering Luke's lightsaber back to him. Fans were thrilled by it. And watched the ending countless times in preparation for TLJ. If the scene had involved characters fans weren't emotionally invested in, that could have been played for laughs. But it wasn't just any movie character, it was Luke F**king Skywalker.

If you were always going to nonchallantly fling the lightsaber away, WHY or WHY build it up so dramatically at the end of the previous movie???!? The grand set-up meant the 'laugh' at the beginning of TLJ was at the fans' expense. It reminded me of Bill Shatner's classic SNL Star Trek Convention skit where he hilariously told his Trekkie audience to "grow up and get a life."

The introduction of Yoda was an example of the brilliant execution of the subversion of fan expectations. A classic Star Wars Scene!!!

Oooooooooor maybe George Lucas wrote his film trilogy as a three act play? That's what a great film trilogy does. Part 2 is about highlighting the darkness before the light.

Since you quoted George Lucas, isn't it a bit ironic that he changed his original screenplay plans for ROTJ for fear of upsetting the legion of fans the films had generated. This comes directly from Gary Kurtz.

 

The ending of TFA was ambiguous. Luke gives Rey a rueful look fool of memories returning to him and clearly contemplating dire events past and future. Of course it was dramatic. How couldn't it be. To insist that it precluded the way that Johnson continued that scene is spurious and specious.

Really, you need to speak only for yourself when speculating that you are being laughed at or told told to get a life by a movie or its makers.

But... you don't subvert fan's expectations. You give them what they want. You don't dramatically send Luke a ghostly message when he's at death's door to go see this jedi master. You don't tear Luke away from his friends from the first movie, stage a dramatic crash landing and then joke around at Luke's and the audience's expense with a foam frog.

But who said the fans wanted a three act play? It's not about what the director wants. It's what the fans want.

It wasn't about not upsetting fans. (it did upset some fans incidentally) It was about securing the financial success of his company, including merchandising. Notice though that there were no Star Wars films released for another 16 years. Kind of puts the last 4+ years into perspective.

 

Yeah, and I already hate it. I don't really get the fascination of seeing young Luke "kicking some butts". He was never like that in the OT.
I was actually bored and rolled my eyes seeing Luke hacking is way through those battle droids in the finale of Mando S2.

 

@NinjaRen I still wish that Kylo Ren had said some something like "I am Supreme Leader,... now prepare to become a supreme bleeder." to Luke.

Or "More like, Supreme Bleeder" after he bisected Snoke.

 

Yeah, that sequence…didn’t hit for me then and still doesn’t. Probably didn’t help that I got spoiled on it that morning before I could watch it (c’mon Mark..). Add to that it was immediately after Fennec, Bo Katan, Cosca (sp?), and Cara mowed down all the stormtroopers on the ship, and it just fell flat. The voice/line delivery and visual also still feel off to me (i would’ve preferred a full recast if anything). I was fully prepared and wanting to see the team go against the troopers, too bad they also kinda escalated them so much as a threat.

In a way, I do get a bit of how the “against” side feels, because I had to wrestle with similar with Peter Parker in Into the Spider-verse, because in my head, I was like “This.. isn’t 616 Peter? He wouldn’t give up on MJ, his marriage, and everything like that. It..took a bit of work to get through that, and it wasn’t easy setting aside my initial reaction and looking at the film like “ok, what’s the story they’re trying to tell with him being this way, and does it work for *this* story?”. It still isn’t easy, because I cringe a bit when I watch it and see that “616” show up on the Kingpin’s screen.

So…I get it on one hand. there’s always a resistance to putting one’s feelings aside. Add in that everything with the film has been caught up in the “subverting expectations” meme/criticism or some fantasized version of Rian that has it out for Star Wars and the fans (how many times has “let the past die. Kill it if you have to” been mockingly claimed as the theme of the movie?). And it’s unfortunate, because it’s a really good story about how Luke fell prey to his own legend, how he failed, but was able to recover. And he’s set up nicely to be struggling with the past in a way similar to Kylo Ren, and confronted with Rey that has sorta idealized the past. Only unlike Kylo Ren, Luke learns and comes out of that stance with hope for the future. It’s a really good story, imo.

 

I like this line in The Holdovers. "I know that Greeks had the idea that the steps you take to avoid your fate are the very steps that lead you to it, but that's just a literary conceit. In real life, your history does not have to dictate your destiny."

I suppose you could say that the story in TLJ manages to have it both ways with that concept. As Luke has it both ways by remaining on the island where he can't destroy Kylo and Kylo can't destroy him. Yet he faces his destiny just the same. And is victorious. Without fighting.

 

That's one of the most beautiful posts I've seen in a long time, @Martoto. Poignant and succinct. Thank you

 

Wondering what would happen next? Absolutely!!! Wondering for years whether Luke would or wouldn't throw his lightsaber away in the follow-up? You mean THAT kind of 'ambiguity'?? When you talk about speaking 'only for yourself when speculating,' look in the mirror.

There's a Grand Canyon-wide difference between suprising fans with the unexpected and jerking their chains.

 

You can only speak for yourself.

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Precisely.

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It makes me think of Michael Corleone always claiming he wasn't his father. And doing things a different way. He thought he could have it both ways. But he wound up losing everything in a similar way to Anakin.

 

Same for me, but it's a thing some other folks enjoy, and I get it. I don't have any interest, but I understand the interest.

To each their own.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Just to be clear, that was an educated speculation on my part and not insider knowledge. I am not under Disney NDA anymore, nor have I been for a while, and never was anything discussed around me regarding the topic during my time under that NDA.

Cheers,
Jayson