The "treatment of Luke"

What gets me is how Luke even kind of (rightly) mocks the idea that he'd take on the entire First Order with his "laser sword", yet fans don't understand why that's a joke.

I don't know, maybe I have a different understanding of Star Wars than other fans, but I personally see it as far more thematic for Luke' arc to be one where he goes from being disillusioned to eventually becoming a symbol of hope for the Resistance and future Jedi... rather than simply being the guy who was best at whacking stuff and using Force Kamehamehas.

 

They (fans) are used to experience super-Jedi badbuttery via the old Legends content and computer games like Jedi Survivor, where the protagonist apparently really does take on the entire First Order (or whaterver) with their laser sword.

These fans want to watch a greatest-hits cavalcade of Luke going all RO-Vader-hallway on a queue of threats for 2 hours 15 minutes, and they cannot comprehend just how utterly stupid and pointless such an excercise would be. These fans don't want emotional morality tales and engaging examinations of the human condition; they want fist-pump spectacles and schadenfreude take-downs.

 

Or maybe SW fans just wanted a grand trilogy story that became more compelling over the course of the three films.

 

I don't think any one person can speak on behalf of all Star Wars fans. There's a lot who see this trilogy as just that.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I never said all Star Wars fans.

Good for them!

 

I apologize. I mistook the lack of a qualifying adjective preceding "SW fans" to therefore refer to "Star Wars fans" typically known as a whole community and not to be implying a silent adjective partitioning of "some SW fans". Sorry about that.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I agree with you, totally. I've long thought that one of the biggest problems with analysis of Star Wars is how many fans commodify the Force, and how stuff like games feed into that.

As a Fallen Order/Survivor fan, I can't really deny this fits into that, too. Cal solves most of his problems with a sword, and he has a weird penchant for also mowing down a planet's flora and fauna, too. But I still feel that he's at least a step up from The Force Unleashed.

 

Absolute nonsense! Even your opening words sounds like you're a TLJ defender. "My least favourite... but heres everything I like about it" . Fact is, that movie betrayed Luke''s character arc from beginning to end. He was perfectly crafted in the OT, who would never have left his family and friends, much less tried to kill his nephew over a "vision" he had the power to stop. Lukes failures in TESB came as something to learn from, and in ROTJ he clearly had leaned. The character was never wooden at all, his power with the force are what should have gone on to make him a great teacher, the teacher he will always be in the Expanded Universe!

 

Except when he went to Dagobah as the battle of Hoth was coming to and end, assuming that everything was okeydokey. (There was a deleted scene of Leia berating him for abandoning them when he told her of his intention to follow a vision of Ben Kenobi.

That never happened.

This "vision" that gets spoken of like it's just a hunch or something.... We were treated to what a force vision can be like in The Force Awakens. It's like a 4d VR experience that can compel the one experiencing it to flee for their life, dodge falling objects and evade the clutches of illusory assailants. Rey ends up 20 yards away, landing on her butt in a different room from where her vision started. Are we saying that Rey "tried" to or "thought about" being on her backside and in a different room from where she picked up that lightsaber? No. Because she was not in her right mind or even aware of her actual surroundings until she came back out of the vision.

Now humour me with a bit of consistency here, and apply that to what Luke describes. Rather than just a couple of quick vignettes of things from the past and the future, he got to experience the desctruction of the new republic, Han's death, the loss of his academy and the return to the way things were before he entered this story. He's not looking at Ben and contemplating what will happen because of him. He's fully experiencing the apocalypse. And in response he displays the very instincts that some claim the movie unwrites from his character. His first instinct was to stop "it". In the instant that he, like countless Jedi before him, ignited his saber, he was "back in the room" and suddenly aware of his actual surroundings and the direct consequences if he had acted further on his justifiable instincts to try and stop the destruction of his friends and family and the new republic.

This demonstrates a massive amount of growth since the last time we saw Luke and he almost killed the father he thrice swore not to fight just because of the mere suggestion that his sister might be open to joining the dark side. He only relented when he was reminded of the cost to himself if he went through with satisfying his righteous fury.

 

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Jul 27, 2023 ---

Luke didn't "abandon" anyone in TESB like he did the sequels. Deleted scenes happen for a reason. Luke went to Degobah for a because Yoda and Obi-Wan had made it their intention to train at least one of the Skywalker twins. Yet all we know about why he exiled himself to an island is because he "felt responsible" for something non of these movies ever show us, yet according to Johnson who wrote the script, Luke knew the dark side was rising again. Luke also knew what happened to the Jedi, yet chose to abandon the one thing that stood between good and evil??? Your logic makes absolute zero sense!!

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 27, 2023 ---

Yes it did happen, because Rian Johnson said so. He also explained what Luke had seen, the death of his friend by his son, which is what also led to Luke finding out about Snoke.

Again your logic makes no sense, even your explanation of Rey is laughable, but whatever! To me your just another TLJ defender, trying to bring down what Lucas created in order to make sense of what you want others to believe.

 

Never happened either.

Well that definitely excuses you from an honest conversation about it, doesn't it?

Whatever way you cut it, in ESB Luke chose to be separated from the people he's supposed to never "abandon" . (The scene of Leia being upset about him leaving, just as Han is about to leave too, was cut for time. But it's useful to show that this was not an objectively spotless decision at that time. Mark Hamill was opposed to the story going that way... ) Then when he heedlessly follows his instincts to rush off to their side and save them, against Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice and warnings, he achieves nothing.

After the calamitous irony of a moments instinct that passed in flash in Ben's hut but resulted in the events he wanted to prevent, once can understand Luke's grief and guilt addled conclusion that his interference is a danger rather than a necessity. It's regrettable and he's ultimately proved wrong about it, but it's still understandable. And utterly credible.

Clearly this is a grey area. It's not the black and white realm of "always" and "never". It's not an RPG where you advance past a point and are never troubled with whatever challenge you faced before. I would stick to video games if constant linear advancement is that important.

 

I've mostly bowed out of this forum, and @Martoto and I haven't always seen 'eye to eye'....but his explanation of why Luke chose to exile himself is spot on. I also saw an interview with Johnson on the TLJ blu ray which more or less confirmed what @Martoto himself has just said.
At the end of the day, we are all fallible human beings....including Luke....who make mistakes. It's one of the many reasons I loved the OT characters, they weren't 'whiter than white' heroes and you could relate to them.

 

It has occurred to me that Luke might have had a vision of himself doing just that. Facing down the FO, as people might expect him to. And getting instantly vaporised, as people should expect him to. It would explain why he was so specific about it. And why he ultimately does it but in a way that makes his end meaningful. And not stupid and unproductive.

 

This is also the reason why Rose thwarts Finn's suicidally "heroic" gesture.

 

Carrying on from interpreting Luke's words in the context of what takes place and his own foresight (first quote), I 've been thinking about that suggestion that Vader made which pushed Luke over the edge. Giving Luke back a little bit of the benefit of the doubt (not that he really needs it), what if Luke had a vision of what Vader was describing at that moment. Vader saw it too. And what would that imply? We assume that Vader is talking about recruiting her in Luke's place. If Luke envisioned just that then he would be somewhat justified in stopping Vader in any way he could. If it were not fact that Luke already has the insight that Vader can be saved.

But what if Vader sees Leia's turn to the darkside and is only guessing that Luke won't join him. Perhaps Luke will be the one to turn Leia to the darkside. Once he has "fulfilled his destiny" and taken his father's place after destroying him in anger and in fear of the future that Vader has hinted at. Luke would next require Leia to be his ally to usurp and destroy the Emperor. Thereby repeating his father's story completely.

Personally I don't feel, strongly, that Luke had this vision. He's trying to hide any thoughts or feelings of his sister. Vader doesn't see it either. It's the idea that Leia was untouchable and that Luke and Obi Wan have now failed to keep her anonymous that Vader is mocking and sullying her destiny with temptations of the darks side.

Plus I believe that people have visions of the things that will happen. It's the how and why they happen that's ambiguous. Leia did not turn to the dark side. So it's academic if you stick to that principle.

Still, it's interesting that you can, and kind of have to, re-examine things characters have said owing to their preternatural, and enigmatic perception of events in the future. And how they eventually play out in the actual story.

 

If anyone brought down what Lucas created it's Disney themselves.

 

I feel like there’s a way simpler interpretation.

LUKE to VADER: I will not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me.

LUKE to LEIA: You've always been strong.

Luke, I feel, believes Leia couldn’t be turned. And so, like himself, would have to be killed.

To Luke, Vader’s coercion is essentially a death threat. His sister, who he believed he was protecting by facing his father, may very well die as a consequence of his noble choice. ‘And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, he thought he could stop it.’

 

But is Luke stating that as fact? Or trying to convince himself? He almost turns

Yes he realises that Leia may have to join Vader or else die, as he has vowed to do if given no other choice.

 

That’s a good point. Like his father’s desire to save Padmé, it’s a totally fear based decision based on what ‘might’ happen. He doesn’t really know if the threat is real, only that it frightens him and is desperate to prevent it.

That’s a story element that’s truly enriched by the prequels, I think. Anakin, as Vader, knows what lured himself to the dark and so knows which button to push on his son - actively trying to perpetuate the cycle. Good stuff.

Right. Which is why it’s so consistent with TLJ Luke. If he doesn’t act swift, then the people he loves will die. But it was really only ever actually about his own fears and desperation for control . . . like his father before him.

 

Exactly how I see it....so many Luke fans were disappointed in his depiction in TLJ, but I actually saw it as in character. He was very like Anakin in nature; this was pointed out even as far back as ANH; Owen's comment on how afraid he was of Luke being like his father now has a very different meaning post ESB and ROTJ.

I also was not surprised that Han and Leia didn't turn out to be very good parents. They loved their son, but all three of the OT heroes were mentally and emotionally (and in Luke's case physically) scarred by their experiences with Anakin aka Darth Vader. Finding their son had the Force must have been terrifying for them.