THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Using a comparison, I'm saying ANH was a much more well equipped predecessor to ESB, than TFA was to TLJ. TFA was very caught up in nostalgia and introduction of mystery, and didn't supply many options on where to take things.

As a result of TFA's structure, I think TLJ has a few shortcomings that should not have been necessary.

 

I wonder how IX will shape this trilogy.

The OT is interesting in that ESB ties in relatively well to both of the other films, but ANH and ROTJ kinda work against each other a little bit.

TFA and TLJ almost seem built as a sort of Yin/Yang to each other. I'm really curious how IX is going to play with that dichotomy.

 

Any shortcomings from TLJ belong solely to TLJ
There were no unresolveable JJ Abrams mystery boxes from TFA that would have condemned TLJ to inconsistency within the ST.

It was a well written layout with clear characters that could have been taken in any direction as long as the ultimate character of what was introduced stayed the same and was developed upon.

EDIT: I do believe (aside from Hux) that the characters weren't warped as they were from TFA, but I do think that all 'arcs' and character decisions were rushed, messy, and underdeveloped in TLJ

 

And then RJ said F That and did his own thing, usually involving the least amount of work possible. Snoke? DEAD. Rey? RANDOM Holdo? RAMMING SPEED.

And he wonders why he put out a movie people don't like. Its nice to rail against the dying of the light by insisting people throw out the old.. but replacing it with what we got? Ya.. sorry pal. You're too much Sensitive Arteest for this crowd.

 

I get what your saying about ESB/ANH and I think that was because nothing was set up as a mystery or question in ANH because George Lucas thought it was a one time thing and no sequels would happen. At least that's my understanding. So ESB didn't have any responsibility to answer questions or fill any blanks. The issue I'm having with TFA/TLJ is that Lucas film knew this was going to be a trilogy and should have had something mapped out in advance instead of just letting a new director do whatever they felt like. Each chapter of ST should build upon the previous chapter to advance the story, TLJ failed to advance anything.

 

Well, yes and no. George deliberately made sure he got the rights to do sequels before the movie was out, so he definitely did not count on it to be a one time thing. He had high hopes for it to be successful, and he was right. That being said, at the same time he also made sure that ANH got wrapped up at the end just in case.

 

I didn't know about that, so thanks! For all the crap that George gets, he certainly did something right!

 

You're right, but I never said anything was to the point of unresolvable.

-TFA: Kylo is a wildcard villain who is torn by the dark and the light.
TLJ: Force him to begin really forging a path of his own (good choice).

TFA: Poe is a hot-shot/likeable pilot.
TLJ: Show him that his methods won't always work. (good idea, executed poorly)

TFA: Rey is somewhat naive, but has a good heart, and has the potential to be very powerful.
TLJ: Do away with some of her innocence, test her good heart, and make her choose to begin directing her power (good choices).

TFA: Finn is a FO defector who desires to do the right thing and be a good person.
TLJ: Show him more of the galaxy outside of FO, and teach him that the universe isn't so black and white (good idea, executed poorly)

TFA: Leia is in charge, but you don't get to see her do much.
TLJ: Show her actually being in charge (good choice), show her getting to use the force physically (good idea, executed poorly)

TFA: Hype up Luke as some god-character because reasons. That'll get everyone excited!
TLJ: Well crap, god characters suck in terms of storytelling. Let's do something actually relatable and human, and just suffer the backlash for now (good choice).

TFA: Maz is an expositional-type character essentially filling the role of a Yoda-type character, and being a part of the Cantina fan service. Almost serves no purpose at all.
TLJ: Get her the f*** out of the story (good choice)

TFA: Snoke is a shadowy figure, who really affects the story in no way, almost identical to the Emperor in ESB.
TLJ: Have him play a brief role in the story, and kill him (get him the f*** out of the story) in a way that propels other characters that actually matter. (good choice)

TLJ has shortcomings.

TFA also had some very poorly written setups. We know that when writing the script, JJ had no answers to all of the questions he was introducing. No clue. If you want a trilogy with great continuity, it helps to have some direction at all times.

JJ walked up to a canvas, and threw a bunch of really bright colored paint all over it. Fun, sure.

His follow-up had to turn it into a painting.

 

I like your enthusiasm for TLJ, but I completely disagree with everything you said here. I'm curious, what are you looking forward to in Ep. 9? There should probably be a separate thread for this, but for those who liked the movie, I want to know what you all think and hope will happen next? As someone who disliked almost everything about TLJ, I can't find anything to look forward to next. What are your thoughts on that? I realize that this may turn into another argument, that's not my intent. I'm genuinely curious about what the lovers of TLJ are looking forward to.

 

I have been wondering this question myself (minus the part about wanting people who liked TLJ to specifically say what they were looking forward to). Generally I'm not sure what anyone has to look forward to (whether you liked TLJ or not).

Beyond how the Rebellion is actually reborn is there much to look forward to? Because I assume that the actual mechanics of how the Rebellion rises will be left to our imagination during the time skip. I expect to hear reference to past events but not see them. So then what? I guess maybe it depends on how long the time skip is (I guess maybe it'll be a few years?)

Rey wasn't given any real obstacle, defeat, or injury to overcome like her predecessors and counterparts - given that we are now on 3rd installment it's too late to introduce them. So what's next? A time skip would be enough time for her to become a Jedi since she seemed to be able to do everything else a Jedi does in roughly 2 weeks in TFA and TLJ. But it wouldn't be enough time instruct and teach new Jedi and they are in a middle of a war... so... what? What does she do next?

Finn travels a half inch in character development in TLJ going from anti-FO to pro-Resistance with next to nothing set up after that. What did Luke foreshadow with him, that the war wasn't over? Great. Foot soldier. His Battlefront II character is apparently an aim bot (he doesn't miss) so I guess that's what we have to look forward to, after 2 movies, he's a foot soldier. Can't underestimate how important those are. And I'm sure we'll continue to pull from his limitless operational intel gathered from his time as a janitor.

Poe? He becomes a leader. And? Does that mean no more X-Wing? Is he just going to sit on the bridge of a ship? Like seriously, what do we have next on deck for Poe? Anything? Was anything set up at all?

Kylo, well he's already Supreme leader, he's already dispatched Snoke. Luke is already dead. Kylo is already fully committed to the Kylo persona, Ben is gone and isn't coming back. And Kylo's training under Snoke is complete. So what is there for Kylo to do? Rebuild the fleet I guess? There is really nothing out there established in the story line for him to do. It seems like for every major character there will be a need to attempt a whole new conflict that is resolved by the end of the movie. And I just don't see it happening in a way that anyone enjoys.

 

Yeah, I try to be optimistic about stuff like this, where multiple creators band together to help tell a series.

I think the visions between TFA and TLJ did have conflict, though, far more than they should have had. In my opinion, RJ did a decent job trying to rectify issues that he perceived with JJ's vision, but unless IX ends up spinning this to its favor I think we're always going to see how badly the first two films of this trilogy are in conflict with each other.

 

Do not agree with that at all. Rian had plenty of places to take the story after TFA. It was his choice to make those places involve Rose Tico.

 

Dunno if this has been posted cuz I ain't got time to look... but...

In TESB, Luke did not take out a single AT-AT with his speeder. Wedge did. However, Luke did take down an AT-AT with his grappling hook, his sabre, and a grenade.
So get off your high horse and stop being so condescending.

Come on, you're not doing yourself any favours with that.

 

It's hard not be be condescending when people are just so blatantly ignorant.

You're telling me that RJ had broom boy play with a Luke doll fighting an At-At because he wanted it to be a throwback to TESB and not the scene that literally just happened in his own film - to make a point about how Luke had returned hope to the galaxy?

I can't be bothered with this. You guys need to get real.

 

I agree with you and I have no idea what I'm supposed to look forward to either! The new characters were so poorly developed in TLJ that I don't know if one movie is enough time to give them all more depth and make me care enough. I felt like they were on track with the new characters at the end of TFA , but then TLJ just blew it all up and set everyone several steps back. Maybe a time jump between episodes would help? All I can foresee now is more Darth Emo Ren and his buffoon Hux in charge of the FO, which is laughable, and Mary Sue Rey and her ragtag team of rebels running away from them. Probably to a forest planet where they will have to get the shields of the Death Star part 4 down so Poe and Co. can blow it up. Of course they'll be a hundred or so porgs on the planet helping the rebels by beating the hell out of stormtroopers with homemade slings and arrows...oh wait, we've seen that before! Honestly, I have no idea where the story can go from here and I feel no excitement or anticipation for the next chapter. That's why I was wondering what the people who liked TLJ thought there was to look forward to.

 

I don't necessarily agree. I'm curious, at the very least, who this powerful guy who salvaged and rebuilt the Empire is. They could have given us something.

 

I expect Van Helsing SW edition. So Kylo will be Dracula, KoR will be the vamp wives and babies, Hux will be Igor. Rey will be Van Helsing, Finn and Poe the girl and priest. Rey will have to embrace the dark to defeat Kylo like Van Helsing had to become a werewolf to defeat Dracula. Lots of action and chases and such and it'll probably be a decent popcorn movie. It just won't be worthy of SW imo.

 

Haha! Sounds better than TLJ, but I think I'll skip the theatre and wait for home viewing for that version. Then again, there's a very real possibility that I'll be skipping the theatre and waiting for home viewing on Ep. 9 anyway.

 

it may just be me that thinks this... but i don't believe for one second that RJ had the creative control over Last Jedi that KK and RJ himself claimed to have had.

my opinion of the movie is unimportant here... but i'll never believe that the whole trilogy wasn't mapped out between JJ, KK and the LF team from the start.

i could be wrong, but it would be the biggest case of 'flying by the seat of your pants' that i've ever heard of lol

ask yourselves this.. why was CT taken from episode 9? if they gave that much control to RJ... why get rid of Trevorrow?

i know that everyone is either loving or hating Rian Johnson right now, but i'm sorry... i just don't buy that this thing wasn't mapped out early on.

 

Yes, probably what you'd expect from a Jedi rookie or padawan.

In the next film he had learned to deflect blasts with his lightsaber.

In TLJ he...never mind. Each time I look at the How it should have ended video it reminds me what would have been really great.